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  1. #31
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I imagine Ni to be about changing perspectives. From this perspective or that, two things do or don't look similar. Changing a perspective brings to light previously hidden connections. But these words--"change", "look", "light", "hidden"--suggest a physical limitation that is inappropriate. Actual Ni perspective shift is a change of the framework and terms under which the "objects" are defined. (And they are "objects" because, at least for NJs, the intuition is working with an objectifying e function.) The degree to which any Ni user is any good at Ni use is the degree to which they can invent or discover substantial new frameworks and terms.

    Si, I think, does something very similar. The content differs substantially, however. Also I think perhaps the Si user is not bent exactly on inventing and discovering new frameworks and terms, but on acknowledging and consolidating frameworks and terms. A small difference. They build from the detail up.



    (I just made up both those sets of claims. They may not be true.)
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  2. #32
    Senior Member BlueGray's Avatar
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    Kalach's description seems to fit. Personally I don't get very attached to frameworks or terms and just use whatever is available. While much cant be done without any I don't get much from constantly trying to create new ones.

    Ne feeding on Si: Si notices the small peculiarities, that one thing different that Ne then explores.
    Si is what lets me take a single sentence and reconstruct all the ideas I had that branched off of it.

    I think for me Si is somewhat of a focal point directing where Ne and Ti should place effort. It can focus on some aspect of myself or of an argument or of anything. It detects where differences between things lie or where commonality exists.
    Ne > Ti > Si >> Te > Se >> Fe > Fi > Ni
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  3. #33
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Incidentally, with that description of Si...

    I think Si is more than collation. I suspect (without knowing) that Si is something of a generative endeavour, for it is about identifying differences and similarities. Lots of them. There will be a whole user-generated scheme detailing higher and lower level differences and similarities, extending out to include even arcane, but observably real, connections. It will be a considerable, realistically organised, and--most importantly--dynamically accessible database.

    One assumes so, anyway.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  4. #34
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Incidentally, with that description of Si...

    I think Si is more than collation. I suspect (without knowing) that Si is something of a generative endeavour, for it is about identifying differences and similarities. Lots of them. There will be a whole user-generated scheme detailing higher and lower level differences and similarities, extending out to include even arcane, but observably real, connections. It will be a considerable, realistically organised, and--most importantly--dynamically accessible database.

    One assumes so, anyway.
    Ni and Si are exactly the same. It's just the basis for determining the important information that is different.

  5. #35
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Ni and Si are exactly the same. It's just the basis for determining the important information that is different.
    +1

    Same goes for Ti/Fi, Te/Fe and Se/Ne.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #36
    Senior Member Lex Talionis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Ni and Si are exactly the same. It's just the basis for determining the important information that is different.
    If you're going to assert that they're the same in terms of function, you should make it a point to clarify. From your description, it seemed as if you wanted to state that what they do is the same; it isn't.
    "Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily."
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  7. #37
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Ni and Si are exactly the same. It's just the basis for determining the important information that is different.
    Good luck with that.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I believe it's useful to note the similarities between Ni and Si, but that beyond that functional similarity, they are extremely different in application.

    Ni seems more apt to process data faster, but it's lossy. Kind of like an MP3 (Ni) file vs a WAV (Si) file. The WAV carries every last bit of info about the sound that was recorded, but it's 10x as big as the equivalent MP3. The MP3 will be slightly off, and if your hearing is really good, you can hear a high-end "chirping" that tells you it's MP3 and the frequencies have been cut. But the MP3 conveys 95-99% as much information as the WAV, and is 10x "faster."

    That said, it matters what kind of application to which you wish to apply it. Wherever pattern-matching (Ni) is advantageous, it will be faster, but there are many cases where simply remembering details is more immediately advantageous. For most abstract reasoning tasks, Ni will have the advantage, while for many practical applications where specifics matter more than generalities, Si will be more appropriate.
    What is that I hear?

    Oh, it's the voice of reason and intelligence.

    Thank you uumlau for once again bringing some needed depth and value to a conversation.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I imagine Ni to be about changing perspectives. From this perspective or that, two things do or don't look similar. Changing a perspective brings to light previously hidden connections. But these words--"change", "look", "light", "hidden"--suggest a physical limitation that is inappropriate. Actual Ni perspective shift is a change of the framework and terms under which the "objects" are defined. (And they are "objects" because, at least for NJs, the intuition is working with an objectifying e function.) The degree to which any Ni user is any good at Ni use is the degree to which they can invent or discover substantial new frameworks and terms.

    Si, I think, does something very similar. The content differs substantially, however. Also I think perhaps the Si user is not bent exactly on inventing and discovering new frameworks and terms, but on acknowledging and consolidating frameworks and terms. A small difference. They build from the detail up.



    (I just made up both those sets of claims. They may not be true.)
    I thought it was a reasonably good description.

    Better than most everything else in this conversation.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Ni and Si are exactly the same. It's just the basis for determining the important information that is different.
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    +1

    Same goes for Ti/Fi, Te/Fe and Se/Ne.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    If you're going to assert that they're the same in terms of function, you should make it a point to clarify. From your description, it seemed as if you wanted to state that what they do is the same; it isn't.
    Ok, first of all, it makes no sense to say that two things are exactly the same and then say how they're different. It's a very sloppy use of language. If they're different at all, then they're not exactly the same.

    Sim, I can't believe you gave a +1 to that kind of tripe, for the reasons I just stated above. (-1)

    Lex, while I believe I'm more on your side of this issue than not, I don't think that phrasing is all that useful either. "Same in terms of function" vs. "what they do is the same". Also sloppy language. (Please don't take this as a personal attack and go off topic, cuz it wasn't meant to be.)

    Look people: Si and Ni are similar. How are they similar? In that they're both introverted perceiving functions. Hey! What a novel idea.

    The user brings in information, and then processes that according to some internalized framework. That's the greatest extent of their similarity.

    Then come the differences (also known as those things that make them not exactly the same).

    Ni is more generative, more creative, is looking to build new frameworks, find new connections, push the boundaries, look at things from as many different perspectives as possible to find the one that will be most useful in a particular situation, and more.

    Si is less generative, less creative, is looking to use an existing framework or frameworks, establish how old connections fit the current situation, keep the boundaries where they are, look at things from the same perspective (or set of perspectives -- I won't say Si users have only one perspective, cuz that would be wrong) because that perspective seems to have always worked in the past, and so on.

    Hmmm, see?

    Similar in the first part. But very different in the second.

    Hence, not the same.

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