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  1. #191
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I'm saying it's called the dominant because in Jung's mind it wore a leather mask.

  2. #192
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I'm saying it's called the dominant because in Jung's mind it wore a leather mask. And there's no other reason to call it dominant. I mean, like, it's a coincidence that people with introverted dominant functions are introverts. And extroverts--it's just one of those freak accidents that they have extroverted dominant functions too. And people with dominant judging functions, it's just happenstance that they judge first and perceive second. And so on.

    No one becomes well-rounded by contradicting their function order. They become stressed, anxious, and dissatisfied with the overall direction of their lives. But none of that precludes them from functioning well enough, even successfully enough to be proud of themselves.

    But likewise, no one becomes especially well-rounded by sticking religiously to their function order. The sheer range and depth of stupid, megalomaniac shit people say that to them sounds normal because they're protecting their dominant interests.... look over the last two or so pages in this thread and you will see excellent examples.

    No, people become well-rounded by catering consciously enough to their dominant function followed by their auxiliary function that they begin to see where the limits of those functions lie. They first begin knowing about what information they need and what judgments they make, so they can start actively choosing to find enough of that kind of information and actively choosing to attend to the quality of their decisions. And as they get good at this process, they'll come to know more about where their decisions don't apply and what other kinds of information exist out there in the world. And they'll start looking around for the things they've been uninterested in thus far. Accessing and coordinating this kind of process remains the intended purpose of MBTI testing.
    And by the way, none of this is objectively true. Or if it is, we can't be sure of it. It's all just the spelling out of a model. And just like every other mutant in this thread emphasizing the needs and values of their dominant functions, I am too. A model, a concept, a framework of thoughts about what things really exist... and I'll assert it's all true and worth developing because I think it's worth developing and am beginning to see how it can all be true. It's a schema, a fundamental chunk of the real world... made up while sightseeing what is and was and could be in introverted intuition.

    It exists without proof, you say? Of course it does.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #193
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    People become well rounded by...

    Understanding themselves through self-awareness, meaning they see and accept all the things that they do/believe/value and why.

    And, through this self-analysis, inevitably one will realize their imperfections, some of which they'll deem as acceptable, and others which they'll deem as unacceptable and, if motivated enough, will attempt to change/alter.

    To be objectively self-aware (read as: to be honest with yourself) and cognizant and accountable of what we do and don't do, and why, and to have the courage to admit to one's self one's flaws, and the desire to become a better, a fuller and happier, more content self will yeild, inevitably, a balanced person.

    Period.

    `
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    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

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  4. #194
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post


    People become well rounded by...

    Understanding themselves through self-awareness, meaning they see and accept all the things that they do/believe/value and why.

    And, through this self-analysis, inevitably one will realize their imperfections, some of which they'll deem as acceptable, and others which they'll deem as unacceptable and, if motivated enough, will attempt to change/alter.

    To be objectively self-aware (read as: to be honest with yourself) and cognizant and accountable of what we do and don't do, and why, and to have the courage to admit to one's self one's flaws, and the desire to become a better, a fuller and happier, more content self will yeild, inevitably, a balanced person.

    Period.

    You are presumably not seriously suggesting this for introverts, right? Introverts become well-rounded by engaging more substantially with the external world. And you're presumably not seriously suggesting it for extroverts with dominant judging functions, right? They become well-rounded by agreeing to loosen their personal hold on the external world and come to appreciate wider possibilities. And how about extroverts who don't ordinarily focus on value judgments but on truth judgments? How does self-focused analysis teach them anything but how to undermine their superior focus?

    For Jung's sake, ENFP, is everyone truly supposed to second guess themselves according to inner feeling? To reject the 16 types of typology because it places people into constraining boxes and yet then go on to place them all into your box because it's the one you know to be best for "people"...
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #195
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    So-o-o-o... anyway... what is it that Si doms really do behind closed doors? And the Si auxes, how about them? Those two groups together, they're like, what, a minority population at best, yeah? What's up with that?
    Thanks for your explanations.

    Si don't give a shit about this stuff, is where they are.

    I'll assert this again, because it's where I'm leaning now. S and N in the dom position, are judging functions. Our dom function judges. It has to, because that is what lies at the heart of how we process information; how we decide what is worthy of our consideration.

    Si's use their senses to experience real world T and F experiences. They decide if what they're seeing and hearing and feeling and tasting and smelling is worthy of internalizing permanently. If it is, they remember that object and its characteristics, how it made them feel, and any other pertinent data. Because objects rarely change, and people rarely change, Si becomes a huge data base or library of How Things Are. That is why this stuff means little to them, because this stuff is largely an intuitive's playground.......And they might indeed have intuitive moments, but they are fleeting and momentary, for the most part; contributing to the tapestry of experiences and living, but not often called upon for insight or understanding.

    It's really not hard if you simplify it, and consider Si dom as a judging function.

    Considering ESxJs, and Si as an aux function, let's look at an ESFJ as an example,

    Fe/Si/N


    We would see Si more as a perceiver, like we typically think about it. These types would use Fe as their Mother function to judge all final data as worthy or not worthy, and use Si to perceive data from the world, along with N, to help them understand how people and groups work best. They would be dogmatic in their dealing with people because Si and Ni (my other hypothesis is that the tert is naturally aligned opposite the dominant, but if this is too much of a stretch for you, just think in terms of N) are stubborn once they think they have figured something out (Ni), or seen an object behave repetitively in a certain way (Si). Their Si, and their N, are slaves to their master Fe, so oftentimes they think they know what is best for others because, well, they might give more thought to me and what I need or my family needs more than I do at times, given the nature of them plying dominant Fe with all that S and N!! This is why Keirsey labels them the guardians, etc., because they truly seem to hold what's best for others as tantamount, with that dom Fe, followed by two strong perceivers, Si and N(i).
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  6. #196
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    ^ Well, that's fairly bizarre. But I do recognise how odd it is to consider oneself a dominant perceiver. If other IJs are similar to me then the auxiliary function plays such a large role in one's thinking that one more naturally identifies oneself as a judger. And usually most spectacularly so when in the presence of other people. But, in truth, perceiving is where it's at. It's what we do. ISJs too.

    So I figure, if they're sitting around perceiving stuff, mulling stuff over, they must be up to something worthwhile too.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  7. #197
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    ^ Well, that's fairly bizarre. But I do recognise how odd it is to consider oneself a dominant perceiver. If other IJs are similar to me then the auxiliary function plays such a large role in one's thinking that one more naturally identifies oneself as a judger. And usually most spectacularly so when in the presence of other people. But, in truth, perceiving is where it's at. It's what we do. ISJs too.

    So I figure, if they're sitting around perceiving stuff, mulling stuff over, they must be up to something worthwhile too.

    Yeah, so I think our dominant function is our judging function, regardless of whether it's rational (T or F) or irrational (N or S). I think Jung didn't see this because he himself was Ti dom, and just thought that his Ti was a judgment function because he could feel it making the decisions, and since N and S to him felt like perceivers (and were), he labeled the functions that way, which, I believe has led to much confusion, esp regarding Ni/Si, because Ne and Se are so much more fluid, and there is something to be said for Pe types being more relaxed and "nonjudgmental." But, no matter what word you use, all the archetypes must judge what information is important and what to do with information, and that task falls to their dominant function, in my opinion.

    As far as Myer's Briggs and their J/P dichotomy? Well, they based it on Jung's already defined judgment and perceiving functions, just applying the twist of how J/P types 'seem' to the world. Well, I might 'seem' to be an F judger because that is my extroverted function, and the way I appear in the world, but it's just an illusion, really it is my intuition that is making the call.
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  8. #198
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    You are presumably not seriously suggesting this for introverts, right? Introverts become well-rounded by engaging more substantially with the external world. And you're presumably not seriously suggesting it for extroverts with dominant judging functions, right? They become well-rounded by agreeing to loosen their personal hold on the external world and come to appreciate wider possibilities. And how about extroverts who don't ordinarily focus on value judgments but on truth judgments? How does self-focused analysis teach them anything but how to undermine their superior focus?


    I have yet to have my coffee this morning, but are you fucking serious, man?!!?

    I'm suggesting it for ALL human beings, granted, many human beings lack the ability, know-how, or capacity to self-reflect, so I guess these guys, which are admittedly a whole lot of the population, are exempt from what I suggested. But, anybody who has the capacity to be SELF-AWARE, will have the capacity to KNOW what it is about themselves they'd like to change, and if they're healthy and willing enough, they will effect change in order to become more complete, and content selves.

    One caveat, though.

    It does seem that one has to have a certain level of "mental/emotional health" in order to become more mentally/emotionally healthy, so it is kinda like a Catch 22.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  9. #199
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    For Jung's sake, ENFP, is everyone truly supposed to second guess themselves according to inner feeling? To reject the 16 types of typology because it places people into constraining boxes and yet then go on to place them all into your box because it's the one you know to be best for "people"...


    So very cute, darling.

    Notice how Step B:

    Introverts become well-rounded by engaging more substantially with the external world

    And you're presumably not seriously suggesting it for extroverts with dominant judging functions, right?

    They become well-rounded by agreeing to loosen their personal hold on the external world and come to appreciate wider possibilities.

    Must begin with Step A:

    Understanding themselves through self-awareness, meaning they see and accept all the things that they do/believe/value and why.

    And, through this self-analysis, inevitably one will realize their imperfections, some of which they'll deem as acceptable, and others which they'll deem as unacceptable and, if motivated enough, will attempt to change/alter.

    To be objectively self-aware (read as: to be honest with yourself) and cognizant and accountable of what we do and don't do, and why, and to have the courage to admit to one's self one's flaws, and the desire to become a better, a fuller and happier, more content self will yeild, inevitably, a balanced person.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  10. #200
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    And how about extroverts who don't ordinarily focus on value judgments but on truth judgments? How does self-focused analysis teach them anything but how to undermine their superior focus?
    You need to expound upon this, because I find it difficult to differentiate the two, i.e. although I have many values, perhaps one of my highest held values is that of valuing the truth.

    All good wo/men, in my books, value the truth, so in the case, value judgments and truth judgments are virtually the same, and far from being mutually exclusive.

    "How does self-focused analysis teach them anything but how to undermine their superior focus?

    Notice how I say "self-awareness" and how you translate that to/as "self-focused analysis" which, technically it is, but which also leads me to believe that self-awareness does not come *naturally* for you, because, lemme guess, usually, your "focus" of analysis lies elsewhere.

    amiright?

    I think I'm right.

    But, I made a mistake, too, I just realized, by assuming a more balanced individual to be necessarily a more happy individual.

    If someone is far from being a "balanced" individual, but is perfectly and *honestly* content with their existence, I don't see why they'd need to change.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

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