User Tag List

First 2101112131422 Last

Results 111 to 120 of 258

  1. #111
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Posts
    1,690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post

    The main difference is in how one uses one's "other" judging function. E.g., does an ENFP use Ne with Te? Does an INTJ use Ni with Fi? And how does that look?
    So it seems to me like you're more interested in how the functions interact with each other to result in functional categories that are separate and distinct from the original broader function terms. You seem to think that Ne and Ni alone are no different but rather are just made different by their complementary judging functions, right?

    I believe socionics is more geared at examining functional interplay and gives more definitive merit to how the functions interact when making its categories, but that's just what I've heard through the grapevine. I don't really know much about socionics (it seems rather messy and convoluted to me), truth be told, but you might find that it's worth looking into.

    Personally, I believe that I use Ni with Te, and that I use Ne with both Ti and Fi. This makes me believe that it is the "same N", but that the judging functions direct how things are perceived by their e/i attitude.
    I think I'm understanding you, but correct me if I'm wrong. The premise behind your pet theory is that there are no discernible differences between Ne/Ni and Se/Si, but rather, the differences we see in cognition among SJ/SP and NJ/NP types come from the judging functions that affect the perceiving function in question. You believe this because 1) you think you personally use both N functions, and 2) the characteristics of the ENxP/INxJ dynamic point to shared cognitive values. According to your pet theory, 1 and 2 imply that Ne = Ni (and your theory says the same about Se = Si).

    According to this categorization, that would mean that Pi paired with x judging function would cause the same cognitive values and attitudes that Pe paired with x judging function does (ie, PeTi = PiTi because Pi = Pe), right? If that's the case, then I'm going to have to disagree with your pet theory for now, lest you provide further support to back up your claim (though the part about implying that the examination of Ne, Se, Si, and Ni necessitates a complementary judging function for thorough understanding is interesting, and I'm inclined to agree). But in regards to Ni = Ne and Si = Se, I don't think that's the case (but I'm open to new ideas ).

    INJs and ENPs have completely different cognitive attitudes, even when they share judging functions, so this implies that there's something else going on that distinguishes these two types cognitively. The only reasons this could be the case, categorically speaking, would be function order and different perceiving functions (Ne vs Ni and/or Se vs. Si) that the two types possess.

    Since your theory completely undermines the Pe/Pi dichotomies, this would mean that your theory has to support that the difference between INJs and their ENP complements is due solely to a discrepancy in Je/Ji order. How can your theory use this discrepancy, without also incorporating opposing N functions, to justify the cognitive differences between INJs and ENPs?

    Personally, I believe that I use Ni with Te, and that I use Ne with both Ti and Fi. This makes me believe that it is the "same N", but that the judging functions direct how things are perceived by their e/i attitude.
    There are a lot of people on this forum, myself included, that do not believe Ne/Ni can be healthily juxtaposed, as the two are definitively in opposition with each other. Why exactly do you think you "use" both?

    Other evidence is that for "compatible types", one switches the E/I, T/F, and J/P, but not the N/S. Thus INTJs and ENFPs find each other fascinating, but are not so attracted by ESFPs or ISTJs, respectively. In theory, ESFP should be a better match for INTJ, since they share all functions, not just two. It matters much more that one shares Te/Fi or Fe/Ti, and not at all that one shares Ne/Si or Ni/Se.
    I agree with you that sharing judging functions is more important for compatibility purposes than is sharing perceiving functions. I get along with TPs and FJs better than TJs and FPs for exactly this reason.

    However, I wouldn't go so far as to use this dynamic as "evidence" for your theory. It simply means that the judging functions may be more important than the perceiving functions in predicting the potential for effective communication and mutual compatibility.

    ENFPs and INTJs may be fascinated by each other, but that doesn't have to be because they possess the same functions in a different order. We can justify this dynamic by saying that the ENFP's Ne instills a wanderlust for novel concepts and ideas and is thus intrigued by the new perspectives that Ni has to offer while the INTJ's Ni allows for constant shifts in perspective and thus is fueled by the creative connections that Ne offers. This Ne/Ni fascination, complemented by shared judging functions that allow for mutual understanding of each others' moral values, results in a fruitful relationship.

    We can justify this dynamic by the function categories already in place, so this relationship is not necessarily evidence for there being no discernible difference between Ne and Ni. So, again, why do you view this as evidence in support of your pet theory (rather than as evidence in support of Ne/Ni being different)?

  2. #112
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Posts
    1,690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Just want to point out this out again.

    Notice who says Ni and Si are generally similar => mostly Ne dominant (ENTP, ENFP, INTP)
    Notice who say Ni are more dissimilar to Si => Ni dominant (INTJ, INFJ, ISTP)

    The pattern says a lot to me...
    It suggests that unless you're an active user of a introverted perceiving function, you cannot truly know how it works. And even if your dominant function is Pi, you are inherently weakest with the opposing Pi.
    The fact that Ne doms recognize and find noteworthy the connections between Si and Ni while Ni doms don't does not necessarily point to the fact that Ne doms don't truly understand Ni.

    Ne is a function that allows us to discover patterns and make conceptual connections, so it's no wonder that Ne can see notable similarities/connections between these two functions.

    Sure, Ne doms do not understand Ni the way that Ni doms do, as Ne doms don't experience Ni. But that doesn't mean that they can't analyze the intricacies of the definitions of Ni and Si to find how the two are definitively connected. That's what Ne does, by default. It allows us to create and/or see patterns, and these patterns may not be always be so obvious and/or substantial to the non-Ne-ers.

    Both are internally reflective, information gathering processes but that's all the similarities they share.
    Perhaps it takes an Ne dom to see value in this similarity and understand why it's not completely trivial.

  3. #113
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    8,161

    Default

    Tesla,

    I just want you to know that anything negative I've ever had to or will have to say about ENTPs officially does not apply to you.

    There is some *brilliant* analysis in those last two posts, and you actually did a very job in describing one of my (very few) bones of contention with the way uumlau looks at/talks about the above topics.

    I'm at work and too busy to post a full reply right now, but hopefully I can get in a post or ten tonight.

    Best,
    Z

  4. #114
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Posts
    1,690

    Default

    Wow, can it really be that an NTJ actually sees merit in an NTP?!

    Pardon me for a second while I go shit my pants.

    ()

  5. #115
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    12,443

    Default

    Not this one.

  6. #116
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Posts
    1,690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Not this one.
    It's probably really hard for the people on this forum to recall your distaste for NTPs, so thanks for the reminder.

    Feel free to mop up my shit now.


  7. #117
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    12,443

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Feel free to mop up my shit now.
    You already ate it.

  8. #118
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    INfj
    Enneagram
    451 sx/so
    Socionics
    ENFj Ni
    Posts
    5,651

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    So anyway, comparing Si and Ni... what does intuition do when introverted?

    Well, I guess the stuff of intuition is abstractions. Intuition liberates concepts. It frees them from their instantiated location, which is to say the concept "X" of some real world "object" X no longer needs X present for "X" to be understood as real. Indeed, the real world object X no longer defines the concept "X".
    This is exactly what Jung says about Ne.

    Intuition when introverted will draw on a range of similar concepts to produce an ideal concept, the ideal "X", and this will be understood as prior to and essentially defining of the real world X. And since all of this happens in the conceptual world, the meaning of the organisational concept "similar" can be changed, perhaps at will, but more likely according to some preferred (but perhaps dynamically developing) conceptualising framework (that may or may not persist).
    I don't see the original concepts of being necessarily similar at all; mightn't they be a hodge podge of phenomena. Yet Ni will search until it finds whatever truth it needs, which is colored by whichever judging function is being used.

    But perhaps more importantly, some concepts "X" will come into being without there ever having been a witnessed X. The concept will have arrived in consciousness as a created thing, a product of some composing process probably not too dissimilar to that process that makes ideal "X"s from real Xs, but in this case the composing parts will have been drawn from far and wide, probably indeed drawn from the concepts of things ordinarily considered dissimilar.
    Well, this is Ni. As SolitaryWalker says (i'm so tired of saying that--i should get something for that ) all Ni needs is a quiet place to reflect.

    Basically, they all need objects except Ni, according to my understanding.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  9. #119
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    INfj
    Enneagram
    451 sx/so
    Socionics
    ENFj Ni
    Posts
    5,651

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Even here on the forum, with plenty of people who understand MBTI and N and S, we're arguing about what Ni and Si "really are."
    Well, it doesn't matter what she thinks she is. She's only 14, and couldn't care less! I am the analyzer here; the diagnoser of functions.

    (And then there's my own pet theory that there really is no "Ni" or "Si", but just N and S, which act one way when used with extroverted judging and another way when used with introverted judging. One either has a highly-developed inner mental world, or lives more fully in the real world.)
    I haven't made it to tesla's responses yet, so bear with me if I have missed something, please.

    So, if someone uses N with Fe, you think that N will have more Ni flavor (introverted flavor) than Ne, and when used with Fi, more extraverted to balance it out or something? Same with S?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  10. #120
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    INfj
    Enneagram
    451 sx/so
    Socionics
    ENFj Ni
    Posts
    5,651

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Other evidence is that for "compatible types", one switches the E/I, T/F, and J/P, but not the N/S. Thus INTJs and ENFPs find each other fascinating, but are not so attracted by ESFPs or ISTJs, respectively. In theory, ESFP should be a better match for INTJ, since they share all functions, not just two. It matters much more that one shares Te/Fi or Fe/Ti, and not at all that one shares Ne/Si or Ni/Se.
    I'm confused, but curious here, could you elaborate?

    Happy Puppy and I have discussed and disagree on this. She's sure she uses Ne with Te and that she doesn't understand Ni at all. I'm sure that I use Ne with Fi and Ni with Te, that I understand both Ni and Ne and that both are "just N". It would be interesting to see these differing perceptions (pun intended) resolve, if at all.
    Yet, if you really thought about it, would you not be able to tell which attitude of N you were using? I mean, when I use Ni, I'm pretty much zoned out. Ne, working it. So, I am reticent to lump them together.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


Similar Threads

  1. Ni vs. Si comparative Ni TEST
    By musttry in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 136
    Last Post: 04-07-2010, 10:36 AM
  2. Ni vs. Si comparative Si TEST
    By musttry in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 03-30-2010, 11:35 AM
  3. Ni vs Si, and more
    By Cimarron in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-19-2009, 11:58 AM
  4. Ni and Si Doms: What does the internal world look like?
    By BlueScreen in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 07-26-2009, 06:01 PM
  5. Ni and Si
    By run in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 06-05-2009, 11:42 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO