User Tag List

First 8910111220 Last

Results 91 to 100 of 258

  1. #91
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    That's interesting. Why would you look at it as an subject/object split?
    The decision is whether the appropriate perspective for judgment comes from one's subjective beliefs, or from previously-understood objective information.

    I characterize it as a "decision" because I don't see this as an inborn trait. I think that the distinction between dependence on others as a frame for judgment, opposed to dependence on oneself, initially comes through early childhood development and is later tempered through life experience.

  2. #92
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    INfj
    Enneagram
    451 sx/so
    Socionics
    ENFj Ni
    Posts
    5,651

    Default

    hi, Sy! I really liked your post, and some others, while reading this thread. I see you are an istj now. How come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Si remembers sensory experiences and draws conclusions.
    Ni takes information abstractly (not via the senses) and draws conclusions.
    We all have memory. I think that just needs to be said.

    Si doms seem to tie their memory to objects, and since people are objects to them, they have good memory of things they've witnessed people doing. Their perceiving function will have to run through F or T though, and both will flavor their memory storage and judging accordingly. SolitaryWalker talks all about this is in the type profiles in his book.

    Ni doms seem to tie their memory to abstract ideas. My memory sucks when it comes to objective data, but I can recall entire feelings or concepts surrounding an event from the past, including how people reacted emotionally (Fe), and draw on that in the present for the present, or for the future.

    Ni is about synthesizing information and creating a vision of the future.
    Si is about synthesizing information and creating a vision of the past, a frame of reference for the future. Both impel one to realize goals and keep you focused.

    Si is comparative, as is Ni, but Ni does it on an abstract level whereas Si does it on a concrete level.
    Synthesizing means:

    In general, the noun synthesis (from the ancient Greek ????????, ??? "with" and ????? "placing") refers to the combining of two or more entities to form something new.
    Ni gathers abstract concepts (think imagination on crack) and combines them with stored memories from experiences or truths already gleaned, to form new hypotheses. Since new ideas are, well, new, and not tested, it lends a forward-leaning focus to Ni; hence the 'future' orientatation we all hear so much about in Ni-dom archetypes.

    Si gathers concrete images and subjectifies them either through T or F, committing them to memory. Since objects do not change over time like abstract concepts, an Si dom's memory will appear more rigid or rooted in tradition than Ni; it would take a change in the physical universe to change Si's experiences. If the Si dom was an F judger, then perhaps they would appear more flexible than an Si dom who uses T, because facts will not change so much as people will. In this consideration, I don't see Si as synthesizing much; once it's perceptions are cemented in experience, little sythesis would need to occur, because things will basically remain status quo, at least for an STJ. And I'd guess that could happen as early as middle-childhood, because by then, the STJ would have had enough validation in his/her judgment function over time and repetition, that by adulthood, they could be fairly mentally steadfast individuals, if living in a healthy environment, etc.

    Ni takes in information and melds it into a shape as does Si. Why do you think SJs are often conservative?

    Si bases itself on the past and facts. If it's worked and is empirically based, then it's good enough to keep for the future.
    Yes, because facts don't change much (STJ). People change more (SFJ), but even people exhibit the same patterns over time, hence the fields of psychology and pyschotherpay and psychiatry.

    Ni bases itself on symbolic concepts since it gathers it's information abstractly and thus is focused on the facts' patterns rather than the actual facts. So it theorizes of what might be the best approach in the future based on such perceived patterns.

    So, I think Ni and Si are similar in some regards and vastly different in others. Personally, I feel like Ni is much closer to Ne than Si, because to change attitudes is much easier than to change preferences. But I am very N. Some people who have perceiving and judging divides that are close, might very likely be more comfortable with going between preferences, not attitudes, like Ni and Si, in a InTJ who tests 55/45 N/S. They would likely do better with Si than Ne, but that's just my own hypothesis of course.

    I think it's worth noting that STJs that I know, seem to have little patience with dreaming; they are more perfunctory. Because what is there to dream about? The universe is constant, mathematical laws are unchanging, and things are the way they are. If facts change, then great, things might be able to change up a bit, but otherwise, it's just about capitalizing on what you already know to be true.

    Ni is always seeking out new truths and new discoveries; dreaming. How able you are to do this depends on whether you are T or F; hindered by factual proof, or not.

    VagrantFarce says:

    OK, so I'm pretty sure both Si and Ni are about anticipating things before they happen, whereas Ne and Se are about reacting to things while they happen. So both Si and Ni draw on the past, and both Si and Ni predict the future - but they don't share the same focus.
    I don't feel like I anticipate though. The thrust of my Ni is to SEE. See the truth, see a better way, see the motivation. That is why I will exit a debate if my Ti is not able to keep up with a Ti dom/aux, and it is not allowing my Ti to keep up. Because I cannot allow my vision to be occluded in any way, shape, or form. It's like having someone put a hand up to my eyes when i am trying to see something in the distance. It's extremely annoying. haha. Ni is not necessarily about anticipate. Anticipation implies a bit of doing something. And my Ni is not doing anything but trying to SEE.

    I'd say Si's thrust is to recall. Recall experiences so that they can judge whether or not this is indeed a rare piece of new data that needs to be added to the databank, or if it has, as is usual, already been defined.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  3. #93
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    1,557

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Anticipation implies a bit of doing something.
    I always thought the opposite - it's a way for people to "brace for impact", in a way. "I'm not going to enter into this process, because I already know what I need to know." It's a way for people to perceive without actually taking anything in; "you can't make me look", that one stubborn rock in the river , etc.
    Hello

  4. #94
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    INfj
    Enneagram
    451 sx/so
    Socionics
    ENFj Ni
    Posts
    5,651

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    I always thought the opposite - it's a way for people to "brace for impact", in a way. "I'm not going to enter into this process, because I already know what I need to know." It's a way for people to perceive without actually taking anything in; "you can't make me look", that one stubborn rock in the river , etc.

    I wouldn't use it as an adjective personally, to describe Ni. But you can.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  5. #95
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Y'all are missing something fundamental. If Si is but a collection of data available for recall and Ni is but an accounting of the abstract connections available in the data, then both functions are really nothing other than packrat versions of Se and Ne saddled with a slow and sickly connection to immediate reality. And this is not true.

    You're also kinda screwed up on the definition of objective and subjective with respect to functions.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  6. #96
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Y'all are missing something fundamental. If Si is but a collection of data available for recall and Ni is but an accounting of the abstract connections available in the data, then both functions are really nothing other than packrat versions of Se and Ne saddled with a slow and sickly connection to immediate reality. And this is not true.
    More like, the introverted perceiving function is the brain's mechanism for sorting through stored sensory data, while the extraverted perceiving function is the brain's mechanism for sorting through real-time data.

    It's not that special. Everyone has both.

    And I don't care about the formal definition of functions. I care about how it seems the brain works.

  7. #97
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Psyke!
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #98
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    INfj
    Enneagram
    451 sx/so
    Socionics
    ENFj Ni
    Posts
    5,651

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Y'all are missing something fundamental. If Si is but a collection of data available for recall and Ni is but an accounting of the abstract connections available in the data, then both functions are really nothing other than packrat versions of Se and Ne saddled with a slow and sickly connection to immediate reality. And this is not true.

    You're also kinda screwed up on the definition of objective and subjective with respect to functions.
    I don't recall ever limiting my description of Si and Ni/ I was simply trying to give a gist of their overall nature inasmuch as I understand it. You inferred 'is but an' yourself. After reading your convoluted definitions of functions on here for more than one year, and trying to make sense of them, your criticism of my interpretation of functions means very little to me. But if you'd like to respectfully dialogue with me about them, I'd welcome that. I'm done with condescending put downs about my viewpoints in that regard.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  9. #99
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Socionics
    INTp
    Posts
    413

    Default

    you know that Jung wrote what these functions mean in detail in his paper "psychological types" ? might want to save yourself the trouble and check his work.

  10. #100
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    The missing fundament is some description of what these functions do while introverted. Mere hoarding of perception doesn't cut it. There is some further, ongoing processing--internal and technically removed from the immediate world.

    Si, for example, creates ideal images. Multiple physical details, accurately recalled, are combined to produce a Platonic object, an ideal physical form that does not necessarily correspond to any one real object. Naturally there are individual variations, what with different users having had different immediate sensory experiences, but for any one user this created ideal *is* the object.

    And we do rightly say "object" for the content of Si and Ni because, at least for Js, the organisational logic imposed on perception comes from an e function--and e functions objectify.

    This, for example, presumably means that Si users can, technically, do more with their perception than merely categorise the explicitly physical world. Inside their sense experiences there will be analogues of abstractions--numbers, for presumed example, created from long sense experiences of the printed pages of Math texts, teachers' blackboard chalkings, the users own pencilings... and though they may manipulate these things as physical objects, still they reference abstractions.


    ...he says, hypothesizing.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

Similar Threads

  1. Ni vs. Si comparative Ni TEST
    By musttry in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 136
    Last Post: 04-07-2010, 10:36 AM
  2. Ni vs. Si comparative Si TEST
    By musttry in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 03-30-2010, 11:35 AM
  3. Ni vs Si, and more
    By Cimarron in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-19-2009, 11:58 AM
  4. Ni and Si Doms: What does the internal world look like?
    By BlueScreen in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 07-26-2009, 06:01 PM
  5. Ni and Si
    By run in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 06-05-2009, 11:42 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO