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Thread: Your shadow

  1. #11
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    haha, i would never associate the term sensitivity with huggy-feely. (especially in context of strangers)

    being permeable to your self equals being permeable to other people. other people's nature creates a resonance in your shadow, so when they curse you from their standpoint and you are sensitive it feels like god is cursing you. every time, even if its a stranger on the internet. (that is: only if someone truly talks to your shadow). and if you can open up to your shadow, its message becomes less literal and concrete, less like what the person said, and then you can digest it and it can help you. and if you cant create that open (irrational) mental space that allows for such translation/conversion, then its just fucking terrifying and you wish you were insensitive and could just recject those voices all together. but sensitive people dont have a choice.

    there are positive aspects of being permeable, but somehow the negative ones might be more reliable for diagnosis. its not something someone would make up. even though it can be confused with other troubles.
    If i am correct, you are being so abstract now, that it is not even funny. I even wiki'd the word permeable.

    I have just written a long passage and deleted it because what i did was infact contradict myself. To discuss logic with you, i must realise that nothing is set in stone. I enjoy the fluidity and yet my thinking can stop short on occasions. Thank you for your insight, it is much appreciated.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  2. #12
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    i am all for fluidity and not setting things in stone. and if i don't understand anything or it does not fall into place i just move on. eventually it will come back to me, when i need it/have use for it.

  3. #13
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    The shadow of a type will be the same functions, but in reverse (i.e. INTP=Ti-Ne-Si-Fe; Shadow=Te-Ni-Se-Fi). They can be found here at the bottom of the page.

  4. #14
    Glycerine
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    Some people say that an ESFJ's shadow is actually INTP. However, shadow types are highly debatable.

  5. #15
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    I am afraid of my own shadow, which is the reason I tend to reside in dark areas.

  6. #16
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    • Your shadow side can trip you up whe forced to use preferences or when life gets stressfull--and especially if both of those criteria are met at the same time
    • Arguing exactly what is defined by "shadow" is probably pointless, but the biggest part of it in clinical experience and research (see "Was That Really Me?" by Naomi Quenk for the best descriptions) is that the function opposite the dominant erupts, outside of conscious control, and makes a mess of things
    • However, when you consciously try to use that inferior function, you actually turn off the dominant, so it can be a source of rest, delight, renewal.


    Often, hobbies reflect the shadow side for just this purpose. Intuitives take up counted cross stitch, growing orchids, building domino mazes to use Sensing. Sensing types decide they want to travel or take an adult ed course, or...my mother-in-law at age 60 joined community theater. Thinking types work on relationships or play pick-up basketball with a group of friends. Feeling types do Sudoku or read mysteries...
    edcoaching

  7. #17
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Some people say that an ESFJ's shadow is actually INTP. However, shadow types are highly debatable.
    Naomi Quencks books Beside Ourselves and Was that Really Me, and Joe Butts of typelogic.com coincide with the MB theory, and as you are conveying it. They both say that the inferior function is the fourth function used. In the case of an INTP, that would be Fe. I have some problems with this theory that I will come back to. ESFJ is merely the functions of INTP in reverse. This is unfortunately incorrect. For years when I read the descriptions in the books of the aforementioned, I always wondered why the Fe did not seem to fit. In fact even when I mistyped as INTP, I always thought there was something wrong with me since other INTPs said they have little use of Fe when I used it very readily. It became apparent that there was something wrong with the theory as I understood it.

    The first and only MB enthusiasts that know to go further and say we do use all 8 functions, is Lenore Thomson-Bentz. In her book, Personality Type: An Owners Manual Lenore refers to our function hierarchys as lasagnas. For an INTP, Lenores lasagna theory went something like this: Ti-Ne-Fi-Se-Ni-Te-Si-Fe. Lenores theory maintains the consistency of the MB theory that the Si and Fe are the least used functions for INTP. Lenores theory splits the first two functions (Ti-Ne) and last two (Si-Fe), adding the other four in between (Fi-Se-Ni-Te) hence the term lasagna. The problem is that in splitting the functions, she misplaces the tertiary and fourth functions. After all, tertiary literally means in third place, hence the Si must go after the auxiliary function Ti-Ne-Si. For balance, the fourth function must be a feeling function and be opposite of Si to keep with Jungs principles, ergo Fe.

    John Beebe as we know theorizes that the functions for an INTP are as follows: Ti-Ne-Si-Fe-Te-Ni-Se-Fi. This makes perfect since for a number of reasons. Although I can and do use E/I functions in combo (even Ti-Fe), its cognitively impossible for me to use two judging or two sensing functions simultaneously, and defies the laws of physics in believing that I can introvert or extravert two functions simultaneously. Thus not only do we use many functions in combo we can never use these functions together since they represent the same thing:

    Si/Ni, Se/Ne, Te/Fe, Ti/Fi. In conclusion my least used function is not Fe as it has been proposed, but Fi. The same goes for INTPs. My shadow function is not the reversal of my four functions ESFJ, but even based on Beebes work it could be ISFP and as ISTP mine would be INFP. Followers of Beebe and Berens work simply say that our shadows would be the same function order of our normal type, just using opposite attitudes. Hence ENTJ would be the shadow of INTP and ESTJ for ISTP.

  8. #18
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    And when I'm in a terrible mood, I can be pretty emo/INFP.
    Why does the rain have to fall perpetually upon the INFP?

    I love you EJCC, but being sad or in a bad mood is not reflective of the natural state of the INFP.

    And saslou, once you've taken the test more than two or three times there's little hope in my opinion of getting an accurate result ever again. You are too biased; you know where the questions lead.

    Plus, if you read type descriptions, it's not weird to identify with little pieces of other ones here and there anyway. And if you are functioning in non-typical ways for yourself, I could see you identifying more with non-typical traits at this time.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #19
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Why does the rain have to fall perpetually upon the INFP?
    People enjoy wallowing in their own ignorance.

    Fi is about personal values, maintaining integrity.
    There's a reason Gary Hartzler named his chapter on Fi, "The Conscience."
    It's not about being emotional.

    I love you EJCC, but being sad or in a bad mood is not reflective of the natural state of the INFP.
    Sure it is. Just like the natural state of the ESTJ is torturing small animals.

  10. #20
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Why does the rain have to fall perpetually upon the INFP?

    I love you EJCC, but being sad or in a bad mood is not reflective of the natural state of the INFP.
    Sorry... I phrased it badly.

    I meant this:

    Under extreme stress, fatigue or illness, the ESTJ's shadow may appear - a negative form of INFP. Example characteristics are:
    withdrawing and wanting to be alone
    having intense emotions, that may or may not be expressed
    being very sensitive to criticism
    attributing unrealistic negative meaning to others actions or statements
    ^and also feeling like no one understands how DEEPLY I feel the PAIN... which is a totally un-ESTJ-ish thought, and it only comes up when I'm under severe stress. Very Fi... so I figured it was the negative INFP shadow.

    p.s. I love you too, PeaceBaby
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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