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  1. #51
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    Besides just making a priori assumption of "thats unethical", what's really wrong with that? I mean, there are some jobs where I think it makes sense to want to hire a certain style of person. When we dont label this "style" people dont think twice about it. An MBTI label, and everyone gets upset. Yes, people could game the MBTI tests and all try and get EXTJ, but lets steer clear of that point for a second:

    If you have two equally qualified candidates, what's wrong with hiring the ESTJ over the INFP, if ESTJ qualities are what you wanted to hire in the first place?
    The fact that you don't see why it's unethical is more than a little disturbing.

  2. #52
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    The largest repository of people that I know who know about MBTI/type theory are here, on this forum.
    Two million Americans do the MBTI personality test every year. And the MBTI personality test has been operating for seventy years.

    Why, just yesterday, on the opposite side of the world, sitting alfresco at the Bakery, a complete stranger asked what my type was. And we entered an animated conversation about introversion and extroversion.

    MBTI was created in the USA and exported to the rest of the world along with American popular culture.

    Unfortunately MBTI is not a personality test. It is just another American scam.

    MBTI has the same truth value as astrology and is used in the same way.

    When someone asks me my star sign in a bar, I know they are trying to pick me up. And when someone asks for my type over coffee at the Bakery, I know their interest in me is not entirely platonic.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    IIRC, she was significantly more qualified than the others. They were dismayed to see her type because they had it figured out that they couldn't have any INFP for the job when there were candidates whose letters matched more clearly with the letters that they wanted. So they hired someone less qualified (by their own measurements of what "qualified" was--the MBTI was one of the last tests) because of nothing but her type.
    My own boss went to a workshop where everyone was typed, came back and talked with me about it, I mentioned I was an INFJ, and he registered shock on his face and then looked me straight in the eye and said "You're worthless!"

  4. #54
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    IIRC, she was significantly more qualified than the others. They were dismayed to see her type because they had it figured out that they couldn't have any INFP for the job when there were candidates whose letters matched more clearly with the letters that they wanted. So they hired someone less qualified (by their own measurements of what "qualified" was--the MBTI was one of the last tests) because of nothing but her type.
    what sort of "qualified" did it mean? I dont mean to pick a fight. I have a real life example to sort of "flush this out":

    There is an industry that I have worked in the past few summers of college. There are some people who still work in this industry after college as supplemental income/volunteer. Being qualified could be an assortment of:
    --years of experience/age
    --credentials from related fields
    --prior levels of responsibility
    --credentials from the field itself
    --past success
    --general book knowledge of the field

    However, with ALL of that above, there really are certain personalities that just do it better and fit in better with the rest of the staff.

    There was a really young ENFJ who turned out 10x times better than 2 ESFJs that were 'more qualified' (all three were hired at one point). The difference is largely accounted for that the ENFJ was more of an "In Charge" personality. To be fair, im retroactively analyzing this.

    Another example was a situation where I was working with an ENFP. We were both qualified, and got along fine outside of work. However, our styles could not be more ill-matched. He never wanted to plan anything out. He would agree to sit down and plan, but he would never want to finish it ("hey lets finish this later/ya whatever/thats all fine whatever who cares"). He basically wanted to wing it day by day. It actually worked fine for him the year before (so im not hating on him). It was just a terrible match. The following year I was working with an ISTJ. This match was perfect. We were able to plan things out, map out some goals, tasks and checkpoints. The ISTJ however, would be less qualified than the ENFP. The end result of the team work, was however, better with the ISTJ due to personality.

    The moral of the story is, I think being more qualified can be a curse if its "the wrong fit".

  5. #55
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    And i assume you mean that everyone was taught to make constructive use of normal differences, vs. using type to label others and flaunt their own particular strengths...

    When we've taught it that way in schools--reinforcing concepts over an entire year through literature analysis, help with planning projects, etc., we found that students were kinder to each other, more understanding of teachers, and...we took the failure rate on major projects from 25% to zero (it was a high-poverty school). so I'm thinking if people actually invested the time it takes to understand ethical use, things could be good...
    I wonder about this. Take the ENTP-ENFP Ti-Fi arguments as a good example. We have upwards of several thousand cumulative posts on this topic. We understand that these are very different things. More than any other people, we should be able to work through these discussions logically an dreach a reasonable conclusion.

    Yet we fight endlessly around the issue. The more we learn about ourselves, the more we learn how different we are from the other. To transition away from the fighting we have to be able to admit a vastly different perspective may be equally as valid as our own and that our own may even be flawed-even if it is our primary approach to life.

    I'd guess that few people could do this-if anybody, we should be able to.

    So even if you extensively educated everyone, perhaps all they would ever learn is how very different they are.

    Perhaps it is better just to throw some happy feelings using DISC or MBTI-just enough to say "It's okay, people are different, it's good" and then take the Jung approach-recognize most folks will think they are connecting over the same ideas-when in reality they are living in different worlds.

    Let the pretend game continue?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    My own boss went to a workshop where everyone was typed, came back and talked with me about it, I mentioned I was an INFJ, and he registered shock on his face and then looked me straight in the eye and said "You're worthless!"
    I see a Gattica world where they would find a way to vaccinate against INFP.

  7. #57
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    what sort of "qualified" did it mean? I dont mean to pick a fight. I have a real life example to sort of "flush this out":

    There is an industry that I have worked in the past few summers of college. There are some people who still work in this industry after college as supplemental income/volunteer. Being qualified could be an assortment of:
    --years of experience/age
    --credentials from related fields
    --prior levels of responsibility
    --credentials from the field itself
    --past success
    --general book knowledge of the field

    However, with ALL of that above, there really are certain personalities that just do it better and fit in better with the rest of the staff.

    There was a really young ENFJ who turned out 10x times better than 2 ESFJs that were 'more qualified' (all three were hired at one point). The difference is largely accounted for that the ENFJ was more of an "In Charge" personality. To be fair, im retroactively analyzing this.

    Another example was a situation where I was working with an ENFP. We were both qualified, and got along fine outside of work. However, our styles could not be more ill-matched. He never wanted to plan anything out. He would agree to sit down and plan, but he would never want to finish it ("hey lets finish this later/ya whatever/thats all fine whatever who cares"). He basically wanted to wing it day by day. It actually worked fine for him the year before (so im not hating on him). It was just a terrible match. The following year I was working with an ISTJ. This match was perfect. We were able to plan things out, map out some goals, tasks and checkpoints. The ISTJ however, would be less qualified than the ENFP. The end result of the team work, was however, better with the ISTJ due to personality.

    The moral of the story is, I think being more qualified can be a curse if its "the wrong fit".
    I don't agree with you but I have a question:

    how do you confirm which type any one individual is if you're going to be making consequential decisions?

    There's a reason why this is not a science--there's no data in which to root this except for self-recognition (which I think could be argued would vary by self-awareness, which would vary by type).
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  8. #58
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I don't agree with you but I have a question:

    how do you confirm which type any one individual is if you're going to be making consequential decisions?

    There's a reason why this is not a science--there's no data in which to root this except for self-recognition (which I think could be argued would vary by self-awareness, which would vary by type).
    I hope you noticed that I included: "To be fair, I'm retroactively analyzing this". Also notice that all three of ESFJ, ESFJ and ENFJ were hired. I only used the directing/informing as a ex-post descriptor of why I think the ENFJ ended up succeeding despite less 'qualifications'.

    The only one of the bunch that I know has taken the test was the ENFP. I would trust his self awareness. The others I type basically by using the "multiple models" method which crosses "interaction style" and "temperament" to get a single type. Its one of the stickies in the "whats my type" section (vagrant I think).

    I think giving people a test isn't ethically wrong. I think its more that it just isnt always effective in typing a person. However, if the tests were more accurate, then I dont think it would be unethical.

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Type theory says, "We hold different views...and yours may be just as legitimate as mine. Let's compare our perceptions and share the rationale behind our judgments." It usually involves compromise or a complete revision of what we thought we knew. Human nature rails against both. It's easier to accept theories that say, "I'm right; you're a jerk."

    I at least thought this has some merit. I'd put bets most of Congress has taken the MBTI at some point in business school or something and has managed to conveniently forget anything they learned about constructive use of differences...
    I think you make good points about the distinctiveness of MBTI versus the theory of multiple intelligences. These paragraphs in particular interest me. The first bit I bolded because I wanted to ask does it? Is it human nature to rail against both?

    I consider the ability to compromise or completely revise thinking as indicative of maturity, you have to be able to proceed from a position of relative security, ie no emotional or affective crisis occurs as a result of compromise/pragmatism or revisionist thinking. Which isnt the same as nature per se.

    I bolded the second part because I just tend to think isnt that the truth but that any theory is prone to the same thing, people learn from it but unless they really properly integrate the learning its superficial, lasts as long as it suits their purposes and then is dispensed with.

    That goes for multiple intelligences too, there's people I know have read the books on emotional and social intelligence and done exactly what you've said or rather begun to imagine "I've nothing to learn" and consequently also "you've a lot of learn" of everyone else. I'm reminded of the "devil's beatitudes" in which the devil out lines behaviour he finds appreciable, the twist being that the final one is commending those that read all the others and immediately thought of others conforming to them instead of themselves.

    I find it interesting that you consider MBTI to be about knowing your limits and faults rather than development. I think I know where you're coming from but I'm not sure that certain sorts of shared behaviour or thinking cant be developed by all irrespective of traits or trait preferences.

  10. #60
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    My own boss went to a workshop where everyone was typed, came back and talked with me about it, I mentioned I was an INFJ, and he registered shock on his face and then looked me straight in the eye and said "You're worthless!"
    Did you ask him if he learned about projection in his workshop?

    Maybe it was a joke. In either case, what an ass.

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