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  1. #31
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post

    But with type theory, there are 16 normal ways to be with their own strengths and gifts. The best decisions are made when all four functions are considered: S, N, T, F. We always need the input of others because our skills with their preferences will never be as great as theirs. In fact, as we move toward individuation we become more aware of our shortcomings, not, as some people hint, fully developed.

    Type theory says, "We hold different views...and yours may be just as legitimate as mine. Let's compare our perceptions and share the rationale behind our judgments." It usually involves compromise or a complete revision of what we thought we knew. Human nature rails against both. It's easier to accept theories that say, "I'm right; you're a jerk."

    I at least thought this has some merit. I'd put bets most of Congress has taken the MBTI at some point in business school or something and has managed to conveniently forget anything they learned about constructive use of differences...
    Yes, yes, and yes. That is how I try to use it anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Here are some good questions to think about.

    1. A personality theory describes how people differ from one another, how specifically does MBTI maintain people differ from each other?
    2. Is it truly the case that people differ from one another in the respect that the MBTI theorists have in mind?
    3. Are the underlined personality differences significant? That is are the character features described by MBTI fundamental to a person's character? Why should we focus on the personality features emphasized by MBTI rather than another system, such as the BIG 5 for example?
    Why is there a need to be so precise? I can read Gifts Differing. I can read Lenore Thompson's profiles. I can read the profiles you have written. I can read Kiersey's stuff. Based on all of this, I can get some ideas on how people may differ. This helps in understanding that they may have different perspectives and those perspectives are valid. The reason MBTI is useful, in particular, is that there is more written on it than anything else and MBTI practitioners seem keenly focused on application of the theory.


    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    But what I really started this thread over is the actual theory--that all types are created equal. Is that too radical for human beings to accept? That an overarching framework might not be a hierarchy?
    I think it is too radical for many people to accept. The reason may be that people use the differences to help them overcome their own insecurities. I'm reminded of the extravert that complains the introvert lacks charisma or is too quiet, the NT who says the SJ is not strategic, the J who says the P is not organized, etc. It helps them to feel better about themselves. It also seems this somehow ties to the identity of cliques, cultures, and other such things. So for example, if you have an ISTJ organizational culture for example, the values embedded in the culture of the organization work against the ENFP being perceived as equal - it is somehow disruptive to the DNA of that culture for people to think this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I'd love it if people actually listened to each other, but you don't need MBTI to learn how to do that. I understand that you're saying MBTI is another method of facilitation and I agree with that if it weren't so abused by people who use it for nothing other than to confirm their superiority to others. We've got enough of that going around based on other factors.

    You can google active listening skills and a ton of stuff comes out without even mentioning MBTI. I'd prefer those be taught as a first line than MBTI.
    Is the bolded part above really true? Is that how people tend to use MBTI?
    Last edited by proteanmix; 03-10-2010 at 10:26 AM. Reason: merged posts

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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I'd love it if people actually listened to each other, but you don't need MBTI to learn how to do that.

    You can google active listening skills and a ton of stuff comes out without even mentioning MBTI. I'd prefer those be taught as a first line than MBTI.
    Yes, listening skills are essential. Sometimes called Active Listening or Empathy Training.

    However these skills don't come naturally to most of us and need to be taught and practised and practised.

    Whereas MBTI is easy, cheap and nasty and appeals to neurotic narcissism in most of us.

    So we might say, MBTI is in bad taste while listening skills are in good taste and are necessary to establish rapport.

  3. #33
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, listening skills are essential. Sometimes called Active Listening or Empathy Training.

    However these skills don't come naturally to most of us and need to be taught and practised and practised.

    Whereas MBTI is easy, cheap and nasty and appeals to neurotic narcissism in most of us.

    So we might say, MBTI is in bad taste while listening skills are in good taste and are necessary to establish rapport.
    Novel idea. Why not just try using both at the same time then using each of them alone separately. See what works better. What do you have to lose? You can respond back with how it worked (or didn't).

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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander29 View Post
    Novel idea. Why not just try using both at the same time then using each of them alone separately. See what works better. What do you have to lose? You can respond back with how it worked (or didn't).
    It's like asking me to use Creationism and Natural Selection at the same time.

    Creationism and MBTI are not based on evidence and reason. MBTI for instance, in seventy years, has not one double blind test. If MBTI were a personality test, it would by now have hundreds of double blind tests - but there is not one. The silence is eloquent.

    On the other hand Natural Selection is a proven fact, particularly by the sequencing of the genome - proven by evidence and reason.

    It's like asking me to use Alchemy and Chemistry at the same time. It's like asking me to use Astrology and Astronomy at the same time. It's like asking me to believe in Adam and Eve, Original Sin and Redemption, and, "The Origin of Species", all at the same time.

    It's a big ask.

  5. #35
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Type theory hasn't conquered all because it's just a classification scheme, like any type theory. It's doesn't give you real insight into the mechanics of personality, happiness, meaning, and all that good stuff. No type theory will ever do that because of it's nature.

  6. #36
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Valuable in what context? Suppose we go with the traditional MBTI reading of a type and conclude that the strength of Extroversion is having an outgoing personality and the strength of Introversion consists in having a reserved and a thoughtful character. Obviously in some contexts being reserved has greater advantages than being outgoing and vice versa. In nearly every avenue that we explore, some character qualities that MBTI associates with particular types are more valuable than others. Similarly, the MBTI reading presupposes that an Intuitive person is creative while a Sensing person is detail oriented. In some scenarios it is better to be detail oriented than imaginative and in others, vice-versa holds true.
    You've illustrated its misuse well. S and N have different styles of creativity. N is not more creative. Unfortunately many of the creativity tests were developed by Ns,a s were tests of giftedness, so there's a bias that puts one preference over the other. The question isn't which type is the best leader, or the most creative, or the best teacher, etc., but in which way does each type achieve excellence in those areas. Check Marci Segal's work on creativity.

    Quote Originally Posted by xNTP View Post
    Type theory hasn't conquered all because it's just a classification scheme, like any type theory. It's doesn't give you real insight into the mechanics of personality, happiness, meaning, and all that good stuff. No type theory will ever do that because of it's nature.
    You might read Navigating Midlife and Creative Aging by Millner for examples of how the theory brings insights into these things.
    Last edited by proteanmix; 03-10-2010 at 10:28 AM. Reason: merged posts
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  7. #37
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    I hope it never conquers a thing, otherwise I'ld be exposed to hobby psychologists on a daily basis, who wants to help me by typing me random personalities.

    Oh god, I am gonna shoot myself if that ever happened
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #38
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I hope it never conquers a thing, otherwise I'ld be exposed to hobby psychologists on a daily basis, who wants to help me by typing me random personalities.

    Oh god, I am gonna shoot myself if that ever happened
    But you're describing unethical use of type. People aren't supposed to type other people. Movie characters, yes, real people, no. One might hypothesize in private and use that hypothesis to better meet the informational needs and decision-making processes of the other person, but the theory only works well when people "own" their own preferences.
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  9. #39
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    But you're describing unethical use of type. People aren't supposed to type other people. Movie characters, yes, real people, no. One might hypothesize in private and use that hypothesis to better meet the informational needs and decision-making processes of the other person, but the theory only works well when people "own" their own preferences.
    Sure, people are supposed to not kill each other aswell..
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #40
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander29 View Post
    Is the bolded part above really true? Is that how people tend to use MBTI?
    Well, let's see.

    The largest repository of people that I know who know about MBTI/type theory are here, on this forum.

    Most threads when it comes to intertype relations are:

    1. Romantic in nature, seeking to know compatibility with another type. Usually this is their "typologically ideal" partner, e.g. all the INxJ/ENxP threads and why other types don't fit as well. This is opposed to seeking how types with seemingly less in common can compliment each other and work together.

    2. Needing advice in nature, which superficially seems as though it's looking for understanding but typically consists of I'm an XXXX type, they're YYYY we don't get along because YYYY type doesn't get me. The focus is still on I'm not understood because I'm this and they're that and that is incapable of understanding this. I see very little acknowledge of mutual misunderstanding, usually the other party is being offensive not the very commonplace problem of both people are going over each other's heads.

    Basically what I'm saying is when people are given MBTI, look at how it naturally develops. I know edcoaching is saying an intervention will be used to cut down on miseducation and disinformation. But even in cases where people have chosen to educate themselves on typology look at how it turns out. The well gets poisoned pretty quickly. For example, I've gotten quite a few PMs from ESFJs who come to the forum, type "ESFJ" into search see the crap here about the type and leave. No opportunity for understanding. On top of it, you don't even know if these people are correctly typed or if people automatically place certain undesirable traits in a box and run wild from there. Why not stay in the real world where no one knows and reduce another reason for somebody to lay a judgment against you?

    My perception of how MBTI is used based on this forum is that it's a means to disqualify people from one's life if they're the "wrong" type, attribute problems and communication breakdowns to type (as opposed to poor listening skills, relational skills, etc.) and give those who are the "right" type a free pass based on nothing other than arbitrary mental modes.

    All that said, you'd think I'm anti-MBTI but I am not. I'm strongly against misuse and abuse which I tend to see more than proper usage. I'm glad most people take the tests go "oh" and then toss it in the category of astrology.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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