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  1. #1
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Smile Order is Independent of Thought

    motto

    The order of mathematics is not the product of thought.

    J. Krishnamurti



    Let go.

  2. #2
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Without someone to interpret mathematics and order, how is it possible for it to exist?

    If a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one around to see it fall, does it make a sound?

  3. #3
    Senior Member MerkW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    If a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one around to see it fall, does it make a sound?
    I've heard this question time and time again. Under the assumption that trees and sound are existing physical entities, then yes. If not, then no. The problem lies in the fact that one can not actually prove the existence of anything, except for one's one mind (see Descartes). After all, all of one's experiences could be nothing more than a product of the mind. Human perception is entirely unreliable. Thus, one must rely on imagination and reason, rather than experience and empiricism.
    "The mathematician's patterns, like the painter's or the poet's must be beautiful; the ideas like the colours or the words, must fit together in a harmonious way. Beauty is the first test: there is no permanent place in the world for ugly mathematics..." - G.H. Hardy

    "Another roof, another proof." - Paul Erdős

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  4. #4
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Without someone to interpret mathematics and order, how is it possible for it to exist?

    If a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one around to see it fall, does it make a sound?
    Thought is not independent of order. Order is independent of thought.

  5. #5
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merkw View Post
    I've heard this question time and time again. Under the assumption that trees and sound are existing physical entities, then yes. If not, then no. The problem lies in the fact that one can not actually prove the existence of anything, except for one's one mind (see Descartes). After all, all of one's experiences could be nothing more than a product of the mind. Human perception is entirely unreliable. Thus, one must rely on imagination and reason, rather than experience and empiricism.
    But reason and imagination are based largely on experience. Unless you mean it in the Kant kindof way, where we are all born with an operating system designed for interpreting experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Thought is not independent of order. Order is independent of thought.
    Order is defined by thought, therefore it cannot be independent of thought. It must be an interdependent element of thought for it have any function or meaning. Just as the heart may be removed from the body, it has no purpose unless it functions inside the body, and therefore it is not truly independent, but an element of the human body.

    *Nods and pretends that made a lot of sense*

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    motto

    The order of mathematics is not the product of thought.

    J. Krishnamurti



    Let go.
    Perhaps it is, perhaps it is not. There exists order to be discovered. But is it "the order of mathematics" till it gets incorporated into our mathematics?

    The mathematics we know and will know is only made possible by our thought.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
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  7. #7
    Wild Card Atomic Fiend's Avatar
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    *Nods and pretends that made a lot of sense*
    *whispers* Oh wow that nod, he must be right.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Thought is not independent of order. Order is independent of thought.
    Which existed first?

  9. #9
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    But reason and imagination are based largely on experience. Unless you mean it in the Kant kindof way, where we are all born with an operating system designed for interpreting experience.



    Order is defined by thought, therefore it cannot be independent of thought. It must be an interdependent element of thought for it have any function or meaning. Just as the heart may be removed from the body, it has no purpose unless it functions inside the body, and therefore it is not truly independent, but an element of the human body.

    *Nods and pretends that made a lot of sense*
    Order may be object to thought yes. However it is not subject to thought.

    Thought can interpret and define order as you say.
    So what?

    It does not follow that the order of mathematics is the product of thought.

    A definition of a thing is not the thing.

  10. #10
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    motto

    The order of mathematics is not the product of thought.

    J. Krishnamurti



    Let go.
    We do not see things as they are, we see things as we are.

    Order is observed, then people attempt to replicate and use it because they see patterns in it, and people tend to think in terms of patterns on one level or another.

    Ultimately, if we exist in an orderly world, our minds must work and perceive according to certain rules. And in that case, the identification of an ordered pattern related to math is not the discovery of something new, but only the understanding and explanation, in terms we can understand, of what was already there.

    However, our minds are not capable of distorting order, but only our own understanding of it.

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