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Order is Independent of Thought

wildcat

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I thought of the Bing Bang when I asked you about the cause. But then thought that the Bing Bang was a pretty chaotic process which only gradually started to take shape.
I am not a physicist but I expect the velocity of the expansion must have been monstrous.
 

wildcat

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The definition is the human interpretation, the thing is the human perception.

Sight, taste, touch, sound, are the human perceptions of the environment, whereas red, sweet, smooth, loud, are the interpretations of the perceptions. Without the interpretation, colors, smells, textures, and noises are meaningless and therefore non-existent. For what we cannot interpret has no meaning beyond our perception, and thus does not exist.

*Takes a pedantic bow as if he knew what the heck he was talking about*
Sight is the interpretation of objective reality.
Is it the objective reality?
 

Kiddo

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Sight is the interpretation of objective reality.
Is it the objective reality?

You hate me, don't you wildcat. :dry:

Sight is perception. Is it the perception of the objective reality? Only, the part of the objective reality within our perception. Is it the objective reality? It's the only one that we are aware of, so...sure.
 

wildcat

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All of mathematics is the product of thought. The order within is no different.
Comatose inertia from your part my boy.
No no that will not do.

Grind my bones to dust; and make two shame-filled pasties of my head.
 

wildcat

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You hate me, don't you wildcat. :dry:

Sight is perception. Is it the perception of the objective reality? Only, the part of the objective reality within our perception. Is it the objective reality? It's the only one that we are aware of, so...sure.
I love you kiddo.

The objective reality is not within our perception of sight.
Sight is an inadequate process. In our vision the blanks are in excess of what we actually see. We fill the blanks with our imagination.

We never see the objective reality. We think we do.
What we are aware of is an illusion. A castle in Spain.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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Comatose inertia from your part my boy.
No no that will not do.

Grind my bones to dust; and make two shame-filled pasties of my head.

I would rebut this statement if I knew what you were saying. :huh:

However mathematics is nothing more than a language. Or more accurately it's a collection of languages. Euclidean geometry is one language, algebra another, calculus, probability, etc... they are all highly ordered languages. These are simply precise ways of conveying specific information.

If you say that language is separate from human thought, then that is simply where we will have to agree to disagree. I see language as simply a human construct and mathematics is as well.
 

ygolo

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I would rebut this statement if I knew what you were saying. :huh:

However mathematics is nothing more than a language. Or more accurately it's a collection of languages. Euclidean geometry is one language, algebra another, calculus, probability, etc... they are all highly ordered languages. These are simply precise ways of conveying specific information.

If you say that language is separate from human thought, then that is simply where we will have to agree to disagree. I see language as simply a human construct and mathematics is as well.

An interesting thought. Is language independent of human thought?

You Latin, be a language if everyone stop using it, or would it simply be a language that is not used?

What about computer languages. If one day, the PDP-8 assembler language is never in use anywhere, does that mean it stopped existing for that day? Or does it continue to exist or simply not be in use?

What about the languages we have yet to create? I don't believe they exist, yet. But does that mean the order that allows them to be created does not exist?

Is there a Turing-complete language that will allow chip designers to quickly describe entire modern chip-designs? Not yet. But is it possible that there is enough order in the requirements to construct such a language? I don't know.
 

ygolo

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Our mathematics?
Mathematics is not a creation of our thought.

Yes. It is. In the way any of our scientific theories are creations of our thought.

Only the understanding of it is made possible by our thought.

If it were not so mathematics would not be beyond our manipulation.

It is not beyond our manipulation. We chose to have an incomplete instead of inconsistent version of number theory.

We have several geometries from with to chose from.

We even have several foundations of mathematics to choose from--At least two distinct set theories and a category theory.

We cannot spoil what is not within our reach to spoil.

We can if we choose to. Some do. But the community of mathematicians choose not to do so.

The prerequisite of mathematics is that it is not a product.

The prerequisite of mathematics is that it is accepted as mathematics. It takes work, we can make errors in creating it (though we are more careful in crating mathematics than any product of the human mind).

The logical consistency on which mathematics relies may be independent of us, but not our mathematics itself.
 

wildcat

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Yes. It is. In the way any of our scientific theories are creations of our thought.



It is not beyond our manipulation. We chose to have an incomplete instead of inconsistent version of number theory.

We have several geometries from with to chose from.

We even have several foundations of mathematics to choose from--At least two distinct set theories and a category theory.



We can if we choose to. Some do. But the community of mathematicians choose not to do so.



The prerequisite of mathematics is that it is accepted as mathematics. It takes work, we can make errors in creating it (though we are more careful in crating mathematics than any product of the human mind).

The logical consistency on which mathematics relies may be independent of us, but not our mathematics itself.
Who created the scientific theory of mathematics?
Nobody.

We chose the version of the number theory?
The number theory is not an election.

We choose our pattern of geometry yes.
Our geometry?

Science is not a creative faculty.
Science is about understanding the creative faculty.

Not an art. Science is about understanding of what is.

Art is about creation.
Science is discovery.
 

Xander

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Oh Mr Wildcat so uniquely circular and yet direct. I would compare thee to a peeler. It reveals what is beneath but it don't half go around the houses to do so :D

You are correct but as in all things there are limits to your answer, for an answer is what it is with all the usual advantages and drawbacks. For example maths. Mathematics is order, it is the predictor of patterns and yet mathematics does not exists, the order it predicts does.

As for general notes as to the nature of Mr Wildcat, he is thought not order.
 

wildcat

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Oh Mr Wildcat so uniquely circular and yet direct. I would compare thee to a peeler. It reveals what is beneath but it don't half go around the houses to do so :D

You are correct but as in all things there are limits to your answer, for an answer is what it is with all the usual advantages and drawbacks. For example maths. Mathematics is order, it is the predictor of patterns and yet mathematics does not exists, the order it predicts does.

As for general notes as to the nature of Mr Wildcat, he is thought not order.
Yes.
The order it predicts does.

This is what I wanted to say.

Thanks Xander.
 

Xander

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Yes.
The order it predicts does.

This is what I wanted to say.

Thanks Xander.
Not a problem.

I still think we should call this kind of thinking quantum philosophy. It has a nice ring to it :)
 

Athenian200

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Yes.
The order it predicts does.

This is what I wanted to say.

Thanks Xander.

I haven't been keeping up... but what you're all saying is that mathematics itself is a system of thoughts/theories, but that the order it tries to predict exists independently of it? You know, that actually makes a lot of sense...
 

lastrailway

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Who created the scientific theory of mathematics?
Nobody.

We chose the version of the number theory?
The number theory is not an election.

We choose our pattern of geometry yes.
Our geometry?

Science is not a creative faculty.
Science is about understanding the creative faculty.

Not an art. Science is about understanding of what is.

Art is about creation.
Science is discovery.

Strangely, I have started to agree with you.
 

Nocapszy

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Without someone to interpret mathematics and order, how is it possible for it to exist?

If a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one around to see it fall, does it make a sound?

Gettin' pretty sick of this kind of argument.

Of course it makes a sound. Sound is generated by the quick and repetitious vibration of some media particles. In essence, a change in media. Just because no one is there to record it, does not in any way change the fact that the tree will cause the air to vibrate.

What if a deaf person sees it fall? It still makes a sound. They don't hear it, they feel it, because the sound travels through the ground.

This 'analogy' comes out of an extremely narrow definition of sound. What the person who originally made this analogy was referring to (I suspect it came originally from another language, where there was a translation mishap) was perception.

I'm not attacking you personally ("cutting you to the quick"), I'm just so tired of hearing this.
 

Xander

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Gettin' pretty sick of this kind of argument.

Of course it makes a sound. Sound is generated by the quick and repetitious vibration of some media particles. In essence, a change in media. Just because no one is there to record it, does not in any way change the fact that the tree will cause the air to vibrate.

What if a deaf person sees it fall? It still makes a sound. They don't hear it, they feel it, because the sound travels through the ground.

This 'analogy' comes out of an extremely narrow definition of sound. What the person who originally made this analogy was referring to (I suspect it came originally from another language, where there was a translation mishap) was perception.

I'm not attacking you personally ("cutting you to the quick"), I'm just so tired of hearing this.
Now I never realised that anyone ever believed that the whole tree falling thing was a literal postulation of a question. I have been running under the belief that it was an example of existential thinking all this time.
 

lastrailway

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Now I never realised that anyone ever believed that the whole tree falling thing was a literal postulation of a question. I have been running under the belief that it was an example of existential thinking all this time.

My thoughts too. Also I've heard it was used mainly as an aid to meditation.
However I find it amusing to try to answer literally the question.
 

Xander

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My thoughts too. Also I've heard it was used mainly as an aid to meditation.
However I find it amusing to try to answer literally the question.
Just reply "what's sound?" with one of those innocent looks. They'll either get really irritated or their eyebrows will meet in concentration :devil:
 

lastrailway

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Just reply "what's sound?" with one of those innocent looks. They'll either get really irritated or their eyebrows will meet in concentration :devil:

Equally interesting is the concept of "no one is around", which could lead to long definitions on space and dimensions :D
 
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