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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    A different postulation?
    Is it ever?

    The vibration is there all right but does it preclude the fact that sound as such is only created by and for biological life?
    It depends of how we define sound, I think.
    If we accept sound is only the transmission of energy by vibration, then the sound exists independently if someone can receive the wave. That's how I usually define it, actually.
    But I guess that we could define it as a wave transmitted to the tympanic membrane of an animal, thus audible.

  2. #52
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    If that is the case why do you then walk about the face of the earth and do not float in the air?
    If mathematics is an invention, as you say, you should not be gravitationally bound to a celestial object called the Earth which in turn should not be gravitationally bound to the Sun.

    Why do the celestial objects stay in their orbits? Because they are supernatural beings? After all the gods and goddeses of the ancients carry their names.
    This, however is because of another reason.
    You are talking about science and not mathematics. They are two separate things. Mathematics is used in science, but it's also used in a lot of other things too. There are many more uses for mathematics than explaining the laws of nature. More important there is plenty of mathematics out there that has no practical use whatsoever. Mathematics is not required to reflect reality in the slightest.

    The study of the celestial bodies and their movements brought about the science of mathematics in the Valley of the Two Rivers 5000 years ago.
    Mathematics was started in a prehistoric time when someone first came up with a concept for the number 2.

    Hence the basis of mathematics is in the natural science of Astrology, the original name for Astronomy.

    This in turn is based on the movement of the solar bodies?

    A deception. The movement is not really there. The solar bodies do not move. We think they do. We "see" them moving.
    A fallacy created by our brain, the organ of sight.

    What our brains interprets as a movement is but an order of succession, the foundation of "geometric" numbers.

    Mathematics is bound by basic laws the basis of which is the order of the universe.

    Our creation?
    Mathematics is in no way bound by any type of natural laws. Euclidean geometry, for example, assumes that the world is flat! Even at its closest to science it's still an abstraction of reality. At worst it has nothing to do with the natural world whatsoever.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  3. #53
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    You are talking about science and not mathematics. They are two separate things. Mathematics is used in science, but it's also used in a lot of other things too. There are many more uses for mathematics than explaining the laws of nature. More important there is plenty of mathematics out there that has no practical use whatsoever. Mathematics is not required to reflect reality in the slightest.



    Mathematics was started in a prehistoric time when someone first came up with a concept for the number 2.



    Mathematics is in no way bound by any type of natural laws. Euclidean geometry, for example, assumes that the world is flat! Even at its closest to science it's still an abstraction of reality. At worst it has nothing to do with the natural world whatsoever.
    I had a good laugh when I read your post! Please excuse me, I am being in no way offensive.
    And yet the basic thing is there. You said it:
    .. there is plenty of mathematics out there that has no practical use whatsoever.
    Exactly.


    .. someone came up with the concept for the number two.
    When I was young my wife and I had a dog and a cat. Our dog and cat thought my wife and I were one person, divided into two? They did not know we were separate entities?
    Please.

    What is sight, in essence? Sight is cognition.

    Cognition is the basics and the origin of biological life. Later, cognition created the brain, the organ of sight.
    The word sight means literally cognition. Do you SEE what I say? To see is to understand, to know.

    The brain did not create cognition. What did the first cell do? It di-vided. Di < Dis > apart > a part: originating in the concept 2.

    .. videre < uidere was a lost verb already at the time of the Roman Republic. The origin is the Indo-European root WID = to know > to see.

    The cell does not know what it is doing when it divides? Our cognition is the cognition? Our mathematics is the mathematics? Only Homo Sapiens Sapiens can understand the concept of 2?

    Dogs and cats believe their master and mistress constitute one entity?

    Intelligence suddenly erupted in the human brain?

    An architect or a carpenter do not need to be concerned about the curvature of the earth. It has no relevance in their little world.

    The Sumerians found mathematics as a by-product of astronomy 1800 years prior to the Greeks. They invented the sun clock. They did not assume the world was flat.

    Does the concrete precede the abstract?

  4. #54
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Me thinks that Wildcat and Liquid Laser have the same stick but disagree on how it should be picked up and thrown

    Maths is pattern and pattern prediction but maths is not a pattern itself.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #55
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Me thinks that Wildcat and Liquid Laser have the same stick but disagree on how it should be picked up and thrown

    Maths is pattern and pattern prediction but maths is not a pattern itself.
    Of course you are right there old boy. I have been wondering how long we shall go on with this little comedy.

  6. #56
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastrailway View Post
    It depends of how we define sound, I think.
    If we accept sound is only the transmission of energy by vibration, then the sound exists independently if someone can receive the wave. That's how I usually define it, actually.
    But I guess that we could define it as a wave transmitted to the tympanic membrane of an animal, thus audible.
    Yes. Semantics rule as you say.
    But of course sounds of silence are the best sounds. No transmission of energy by vibration there.

  7. #57
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Of course you are right there old boy. I have been wondering how long we shall go on with this little comedy.
    Comedy? I was noting that you two were thinking from different starting points but the whole investigation into the nature of maths is quite interesting. Don't stop on my account.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #58
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Comedy? I was noting that you two were thinking from different starting points but the whole investigation into the nature of maths is quite interesting. Don't stop on my account.
    All right. There lies still something at the store not said.
    As lastrailway noted, everything boils down to semantics in the end.

    Yet we do not discuss semantics. A third of my threads has been about semantics, but this is not it.

    What is mathematics? Mathematics is the order of what is.

    It is not anything we created.

    Mathematics is the sound of silence.

  9. #59
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    All right. There lies still something at the store not said.
    As lastrailway noted, everything boils down to semantics in the end.

    Yet we do not discuss semantics. A third of my threads has been about semantics, but this is not it.

    What is mathematics? Mathematics is the order of what is.

    It is not anything we created.

    Mathematics is the sound of silence.
    Ah but we created the orange, before that it was merely a thing. We created maths because we found it, named it and categorised it.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #60
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Ah but we created the orange, before that it was merely a thing. We created maths because we found it, named it and categorised it.
    We did.
    However our first ancestor did not.

    Semantics does name?
    No.

    Semantics precedes language.
    An appellation obstructs to see the thing it represents.

    Semantics is about concept only.

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