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  1. #21
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastrailway View Post
    I thought of the Bing Bang when I asked you about the cause. But then thought that the Bing Bang was a pretty chaotic process which only gradually started to take shape.
    I am not a physicist but I expect the velocity of the expansion must have been monstrous.

  2. #22
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Does an answer provide understanding or closure?
    Yes! Closure is good!

  3. #23
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    The definition is the human interpretation, the thing is the human perception.

    Sight, taste, touch, sound, are the human perceptions of the environment, whereas red, sweet, smooth, loud, are the interpretations of the perceptions. Without the interpretation, colors, smells, textures, and noises are meaningless and therefore non-existent. For what we cannot interpret has no meaning beyond our perception, and thus does not exist.

    *Takes a pedantic bow as if he knew what the heck he was talking about*
    Sight is the interpretation of objective reality.
    Is it the objective reality?

  4. #24
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Sight is the interpretation of objective reality.
    Is it the objective reality?
    You hate me, don't you wildcat.

    Sight is perception. Is it the perception of the objective reality? Only, the part of the objective reality within our perception. Is it the objective reality? It's the only one that we are aware of, so...sure.

  5. #25
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    All of mathematics is the product of thought. The order within is no different.
    Comatose inertia from your part my boy.
    No no that will not do.

    Grind my bones to dust; and make two shame-filled pasties of my head.

  6. #26
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    You hate me, don't you wildcat.

    Sight is perception. Is it the perception of the objective reality? Only, the part of the objective reality within our perception. Is it the objective reality? It's the only one that we are aware of, so...sure.
    I love you kiddo.

    The objective reality is not within our perception of sight.
    Sight is an inadequate process. In our vision the blanks are in excess of what we actually see. We fill the blanks with our imagination.

    We never see the objective reality. We think we do.
    What we are aware of is an illusion. A castle in Spain.

  7. #27
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Comatose inertia from your part my boy.
    No no that will not do.

    Grind my bones to dust; and make two shame-filled pasties of my head.
    I would rebut this statement if I knew what you were saying.

    However mathematics is nothing more than a language. Or more accurately it's a collection of languages. Euclidean geometry is one language, algebra another, calculus, probability, etc... they are all highly ordered languages. These are simply precise ways of conveying specific information.

    If you say that language is separate from human thought, then that is simply where we will have to agree to disagree. I see language as simply a human construct and mathematics is as well.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I would rebut this statement if I knew what you were saying.

    However mathematics is nothing more than a language. Or more accurately it's a collection of languages. Euclidean geometry is one language, algebra another, calculus, probability, etc... they are all highly ordered languages. These are simply precise ways of conveying specific information.

    If you say that language is separate from human thought, then that is simply where we will have to agree to disagree. I see language as simply a human construct and mathematics is as well.
    An interesting thought. Is language independent of human thought?

    You Latin, be a language if everyone stop using it, or would it simply be a language that is not used?

    What about computer languages. If one day, the PDP-8 assembler language is never in use anywhere, does that mean it stopped existing for that day? Or does it continue to exist or simply not be in use?

    What about the languages we have yet to create? I don't believe they exist, yet. But does that mean the order that allows them to be created does not exist?

    Is there a Turing-complete language that will allow chip designers to quickly describe entire modern chip-designs? Not yet. But is it possible that there is enough order in the requirements to construct such a language? I don't know.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Our mathematics?
    Mathematics is not a creation of our thought.
    Yes. It is. In the way any of our scientific theories are creations of our thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Only the understanding of it is made possible by our thought.

    If it were not so mathematics would not be beyond our manipulation.
    It is not beyond our manipulation. We chose to have an incomplete instead of inconsistent version of number theory.

    We have several geometries from with to chose from.

    We even have several foundations of mathematics to choose from--At least two distinct set theories and a category theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post

    We cannot spoil what is not within our reach to spoil.
    We can if we choose to. Some do. But the community of mathematicians choose not to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post

    The prerequisite of mathematics is that it is not a product.
    The prerequisite of mathematics is that it is accepted as mathematics. It takes work, we can make errors in creating it (though we are more careful in crating mathematics than any product of the human mind).

    The logical consistency on which mathematics relies may be independent of us, but not our mathematics itself.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  10. #30
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Yes. It is. In the way any of our scientific theories are creations of our thought.



    It is not beyond our manipulation. We chose to have an incomplete instead of inconsistent version of number theory.

    We have several geometries from with to chose from.

    We even have several foundations of mathematics to choose from--At least two distinct set theories and a category theory.



    We can if we choose to. Some do. But the community of mathematicians choose not to do so.



    The prerequisite of mathematics is that it is accepted as mathematics. It takes work, we can make errors in creating it (though we are more careful in crating mathematics than any product of the human mind).

    The logical consistency on which mathematics relies may be independent of us, but not our mathematics itself.
    Who created the scientific theory of mathematics?
    Nobody.

    We chose the version of the number theory?
    The number theory is not an election.

    We choose our pattern of geometry yes.
    Our geometry?

    Science is not a creative faculty.
    Science is about understanding the creative faculty.

    Not an art. Science is about understanding of what is.

    Art is about creation.
    Science is discovery.

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