User Tag List

First 56789 Last

Results 61 to 70 of 86

  1. #61
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    So I asked a guy--and I forget his exact qualifications but he's been an MBTI Consultant for years, trains consultants and is a degree qualified neuropsychologist, and ENFP--and he said he favors Isabel's interpretation of Jung: that a person has (eventual access to) 4 cognitive functions and that the dominant has one orientation and the other three functions are oriented opposite to the dominant. So, if your dominant is e, all the others are i, and vice versa. So I asked him, how do you know? He said, I observed it. I asked, how did you observe it? He said, in lots of lengthy MBTI consults and debriefs.

    Official MBTI position currently in discussing type dynamics is to leave the orientation of the tertiary unspecified. So I guess it's a real debate. Either that or the institution is just taking a while to officially change a position that had been held for fifty years.

    But this guy said his observations supported the traditional model.



    Yeah, I know this looks like an argument from authority, but what if his observations are real?



    Free research project for someone: Enneagram variations and tertiary orientation.

    Hypothesis: INTJ 5w4 have Fi as tertiary while INTJ 4's--or 8's or 1's or whatever--have Fe (and are trying not to implode).
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  2. #62
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    7
    Posts
    752

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    So I asked a guy--and I forget his exact qualifications but he's been an MBTI Consultant for years, trains consultants and is a degree qualified neuropsychologist, and ENFP--and he said he favors Isabel's interpretation of Jung: that a person has (eventual access to) 4 cognitive functions and that the dominant has one orientation and the other three functions are oriented opposite to the dominant. So, if your dominant is e, all the others are i, and vice versa. So I asked him, how do you know? He said, I observed it. I asked, how did you observe it? He said, in lots of lengthy MBTI consults and debriefs.

    Official MBTI position currently in discussing type dynamics is to leave the orientation of the tertiary unspecified. So I guess it's a real debate. Either that or the institution is just taking a while to officially change a position that had been held for fifty years.

    But this guy said his observations supported the traditional model.



    Yeah, I know this looks like an argument from authority, but what if his observations are real?



    Free research project for someone: Enneagram variations and tertiary orientation.

    Hypothesis: INTJ 5w4 have Fi as tertiary while INTJ 4's--or 8's or 1's or whatever--have Fe (and are trying not to implode).
    In truth I bet my credentials at least match his...I try to stay a bit quiet here. But there really are a bunch of experts trying to rethink a bunch of this--look at research on other models, where the type community might be dead right vs. myopic, and view everything with an open mind. Tough, but a good venture at this point in the history of the theory...
    edcoaching

  3. #63
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    In truth I bet my credentials at least match his...I try to stay a bit quiet here. But there really are a bunch of experts trying to rethink a bunch of this--look at research on other models, where the type community might be dead right vs. myopic, and view everything with an open mind. Tough, but a good venture at this point in the history of the theory...
    It is a good venture. I keep thinking about from an INTJ perspective--could there really be extraverted feeling in a tertiary role? I'd instinctively say no, but that's just me drawing on only my experience of (a) being me, and (b) having bad experiences with (people I believe to be) dominant Fe users. But then I have to ask, what experience was that really? What did I identify when I decided "my tertiary is introverted!"? Damn good questions.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #64
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    infj
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    i guess you could get mired in the current research models, or you could go to cognitive science to figure out how the brain works.

  5. #65
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    7
    Posts
    752

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    It is a good venture. I keep thinking about from an INTJ perspective--could there really be extraverted feeling in a tertiary role? I'd instinctively say no, but that's just me drawing on only my experience of (a) being me, and (b) having bad experiences with (people I believe to be) dominant Fe users. But then I have to ask, what experience was that really? What did I identify when I decided "my tertiary is introverted!"? Damn good questions.
    And I still harp back to how different a function might look in service to different dominants and auxiliaries. I think of working closely with an INTJ on a big planning project and...our interactions are very smooth, we can work rapidly through processes, our senses of humor are almost identical, but...the way we choose, our bases for exceptions, what we glean as important--the contrasts are really pretty funny. The biggest thing I see is the "Trust me" factor that comes from NF together...I remember an INTJ colleague in my days in the world of finance saying, "After all the work we've done together, I do trust you, but I still have no idea how your idea is going to save our butts by tomorrow..." It did, though. How we trust are guts comes from totally different rationale I guess...
    edcoaching

  6. #66
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    And I still harp back to how different a function might look in service to different dominants and auxiliaries.
    Yep, there's definitely something there. I agree that most descriptions of functions apply only to a dominant function, and even then only to a pure dominant function. Function order is--he says, instinctively grasping at straws--vital for identity, but it also does something to the functions themselves--the whole "in service" thing.

    I claimed elsewhere that lower level functions act as filters for higher level functions. Like, I have introverted intuition, but it is keyed to constructions around extraverted thinking, so at least at that level, it's different from INFJ intuition.

    But I'm not sure "filter" is the right word. If it is, then the less conscious a function, the more likely it is to filter--ie. just be, in effect be a set of priorities that don't get so mulled over, they just are.

    But how do they get to be there? Where did they come from? ARGH!

    So anyway... the tertiary...

    Tertiary Fe in an IxTJ... tertiary Te in an IxFJ... my mind has boggled.

    I think of working closely with an INTJ on a big planning project and...our interactions are very smooth, we can work rapidly through processes, our senses of humor are almost identical, but...the way we choose, our bases for exceptions, what we glean as important--the contrasts are really pretty funny. The biggest thing I see is the "Trust me" factor that comes from NF together...I remember an INTJ colleague in my days in the world of finance saying, "After all the work we've done together, I do trust you, but I still have no idea how your idea is going to save our butts by tomorrow..." It did, though. How we trust are guts comes from totally different rationale I guess...
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  7. #67
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    infj
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    And I still harp back to how different a function might look in service to different dominants and auxiliaries. I think of working closely with an INTJ on a big planning project and...our interactions are very smooth, we can work rapidly through processes, our senses of humor are almost identical, but...the way we choose, our bases for exceptions, what we glean as important--the contrasts are really pretty funny. The biggest thing I see is the "Trust me" factor that comes from NF together...I remember an INTJ colleague in my days in the world of finance saying, "After all the work we've done together, I do trust you, but I still have no idea how your idea is going to save our butts by tomorrow..." It did, though. How we trust are guts comes from totally different rationale I guess...
    why is the rationale totally different if you can be Ni Fe Te and intj can be Ni Te Fe? rather than the huge rationale conflict that occurs from similar perceptions with different judgment pairs? and which defines all of my experiences with enfps and intjs?

  8. #68
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    7
    Posts
    752

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    why is the rationale totally different if you can be Ni Fe Te and intj can be Ni Te Fe? rather than the huge rationale conflict that occurs from similar perceptions with different judgment pairs? and which defines all of my experiences with enfps and intjs?
    I guess all of my best working experiences have been in pairs with INTJs and ENFPs...and I mean all of them. In my case those differences make things better.
    edcoaching

  9. #69
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    infj
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    I guess all of my best working experiences have been in pairs with INTJs and ENFPs...and I mean all of them. In my case those differences make things better.
    i don't disagree that they are not only productive but also highly enjoyable.

    i chalk up the success to N doms with a lot of wiggle room capable of communicating with me and vice versa even when i'm lackadaisical and not showing my work. i get the same quality of experience with entps, altho with greater natural transparency (bc of the rationale).

    i was just curious as to how this way of relating to intjs that i share fits with the tertiary discussion, but alas- i feel like i am beating a dead horse.

  10. #70
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    7
    Posts
    752

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i don't disagree that they are not only productive but also highly enjoyable.

    i chalk up the success to N doms with a lot of wiggle room capable of communicating with me and vice versa even when i'm lackadaisical and not showing my work. i get the same quality of experience with entps, altho with greater natural transparency (bc of the rationale).

    i was just curious as to how this way of relating to intjs that i share fits with the tertiary discussion, but alas- i feel like i am beating a dead horse.
    Tertiary discussion...my point was that Fe in an INTJ doesn't really work like Fe in an INFJ even if you buy into the tertiary being in the opposite attitude as the dominant. And my Te vs. his Te in the case of the INTJ I was describing. It's particularly noticeable when it comes to analogies...the INTJ ones stay on track better...internally consistent and all that
    edcoaching

Similar Threads

  1. The True Purpose of the Tertiary
    By Jade Curtiss in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 06-16-2015, 07:26 PM
  2. Why Typing Should be through the Tertiary-Opposite (The Point of Least Resistance)
    By InvisibleJim in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 101
    Last Post: 05-18-2011, 05:51 PM
  3. The Tertiary
    By Amargith in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 74
    Last Post: 03-10-2010, 02:41 AM
  4. Orienting by the Tertiary Function
    By VagrantFarce in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 12-30-2009, 05:56 PM
  5. the tertiary function:overdevelopment
    By sculpting in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 05-19-2009, 06:35 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO