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  1. #51
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    [/LIST]And, finally Ne:

    • I scan the external world picking up patterns, connections, and interrelationships between people, objects, and events
    • I notice missing parts or steps in patterns
    • External events trigger my awareness of potential, alternatives, or patterns that then provide me with the basis for change
    • I see ways to change incongruous patterns, connections, and interrelationships
    • I take existing ideas and link them together in new and intersting ways
    • I generate usable possiblities for change in the external world
    • I constantly am looking for ways to change things to make them 'better' and have little energy for maintaining things as they are
    • I usually find something positive to see in situations
    I'd be interested to hear if any of these resonate with you........
    This is an awesome description of Ne. 'Tis what I do all the time.

    Thanks!

    This is from Hartzler? I'll have to Google that.....
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  2. #52
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    But is this contrary to the model if the model really is...You develop a dominant and auxiliary that give you a way to perceive and judge, and a way to deal with the external and internal worlds. Myers and Briggs designed the 4-letter code to point to this order.
    Oh, I know. But if I have to be a harmonzing wholistic interactor dealing with the person rather than the task...

    And the tertiary...well...is it against the model, really, if it turns out that it develops different ways based on family/education/culture/experiences?
    Hmmm.... well, reality rules the theory, so if the old guys are reporting it that way....


    Um, does opinion on the orientation of the tertiary vary according to the type of the theorist?

    I notice there are INTJs around the place saying they have a developed sense of Fe, and INFJs saying they rock the Te... could it be they've turned their normal theory-given functions to matured purposes... a long range Ni vision that supports turning the regular Te for INTJ and Fe for INFJ to what looks like the other extroverted judging function? And they support it by the normal operation of a standard Ji? Or something?

    If the tertiary is malleable and comes to relative prominence in mid-life but in one or the other orientation, what was it before then? In the younger years while environment is working its magic, what was the tertiary? This is all covered by saying "while young, a person's tertiary function is for the most part undifferentiated, not easily accessible to consciousness and as yet of no determinate orientation"?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  3. #53
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Meh...you don't have to go beyond the first and second function for type to be useful and for people to find themselves.

    ...In fact if people could just develop their first and second functions well, the world would be a better place. If you think a majority have, go join a committee or a volunteer board somewhere...

    ....That includes NOT assuming they even know how to use their first two functions.
    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Myers did a ton of research (now in Step III) that gets at the development of the preferences and spent many more years on the theory than Jung did.

    ...based on whether people showed signs of actually being able to use their preferences (having a preference isn't the same as having conscious, mature control of it, if you haven't noticed!!!)

    ...Most barely get past stereotypes of the first two.
    I briefly read a little bit of those links you gave me last time when I prodded you about the step III. However, THIS stuff (the quoted stuff) is what really intrigues me the most. I would say that almost 90% of the online profiles paint the types as being very proficient at their first two functions and if anything, "you're too proficient with those first two, you need to develop your inferior and tertiary right away!".

    The idea that you could be a really "shitty" INTP or a "shitty" ESFJ because of a lack of ability with the dominant is fascinating. Would these be INTPs who struggle with thinking logically and ESFJs who struggle at playing the loyalties game? Or would it be like 90% of online sites who say, "you might be too rational mr INTP!" or "your not logical enough mrs esfj!"??? :confused:

    Do you understand the distinction Im making? Online always points out overuse of dominant problems, while I think you're pointing out under use of dominant auxiliary problems? I wish there were written examples of these "under use" people.

    And most leave out the mounting evidence that the opposite orientation of the dominant function may actually develop in tandem with the dominant (like, Ne and Ni kinda together) although the dominant remains, well, dominant!!
    Not to brag, but I intuitively noticed this a while ago

  4. #54
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    I briefly read a little bit of those links you gave me last time when I prodded you about the step III. However, THIS stuff (the quoted stuff) is what really intrigues me the most. I would say that almost 90% of the online profiles paint the types as being very proficient at their first two functions and if anything, "you're too proficient with those first two, you need to develop your inferior and tertiary right away!".
    Do you really think that most extraverted types who are under 25 have spent enough time alone, in conscious reflection, to really develop conscious use of their auxiliary? Do you really think most Introverts under 25 have been in situations that honor their reflective style of processing enough that they have developed their auxiliary? Many, many E's and I's have, but many have not. If you doubt me, look at the level of consumer debt, the attrition rate at colleges, the rate of divorce...or Wall Street or Congress or Toyota or...(and I still like my Prius, now that the brakes are fixed...).

    Maybe you have to get old and look back on those years to sigh and wish you'd spent more time in that opposite attitude to develop the first two functions in balance...or before you realize how much effort it took to use that second one well.

    A ton of the online resources are full of stereotypes. Do any help you analyze whether you're using the first two well? Somewhere here I mentioned rethinking decisions to see how well you used each function...

    The idea that you could be a really "shitty" INTP or a "shitty" ESFJ because of a lack of ability with the dominant is fascinating. Would these be INTPs who struggle with thinking logically and ESFJs who struggle at playing the loyalties game? Or would it be like 90% of online sites who say, "you might be too rational mr INTP!" or "your not logical enough mrs esfj!"??? :confused:
    Using a function well means that you have conscious control, trust it, and would be judged by others to use it effectively. I guess I'd consider an ESFJ immature if he/she uses Fe to step into the shoes of others and figure out how to best wound them. Or, how to manipulate a room for some purpose not healthy to all. Because I view maturity as realizing that we're all in this together on this planet (even Spock, the connsumate INTP, knew that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few)

    For INTP, they may not have learned to question their models sufficiently. Maybe they've spent their Ti time trying to win Zelda rather than building their own models, so you get immature use of the function...

    Or, perhaps they've grown up in environments where they aren't allowed to use one of the functions. An ENFP who grows up with rigid (as opposed to mature) SJ parents and siblings may have a really hard time learning to value their Ne since it's squashed every time with, "Keep your feet on the ground and head out of the clouds. No son/daughter of mine is going to be a musician/artist/teacher with a low salary/etc."
    Do you understand the distinction Im making? Online always points out overuse of dominant problems, while I think you're pointing out under use of dominant auxiliary problems? I wish there were written examples of these "under use" people.
    Both can get you into trouble, so you won't suffer by trying to recognize when your dominant is out of control. In fact our research showed that the point of collapse in crisis is when the dominant is simply not helpful. It's like the rug is pulled out from under you. Examples: INTJs carefully execute a plan and it has no success whatsoever. ENFPs search for every option under the sun only to realize that there is no solution (I watched a friend collapse this way in dealing with a schitzophrenic daughter...believing he could solve it all until the girl nearly knifed his wife...) ESTPs suddenly realize that there is nothing to enjoy in the present moment. Etc.


    Not to brag, but I intuitively noticed this a while ago [/QUOTE]

    To roughly quote Naomi Quenk, who holds to the tertiary in the opposite attitude to the dominant, preference for a function includes a preference for its orientation, but doesn't preclude use of that preference in the other attitude. Hence the lack of need for eight functions in a row or at least in apparent order...
    edcoaching

  5. #55
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Um, does opinion on the orientation of the tertiary vary according to the type of the theorist?
    Let's see, of those I know their views:

    Tertiary opposite the dominant: INTJ, ENTP, ENFJ, ISTJ

    Tertiary in the same attitude: 4 INFPs, INTP, INFJ

    I'll have more information on this in a few months as there's a research project going on...
    I notice there are INTJs around the place saying they have a developed sense of Fe, and INFJs saying they rock the Te... could it be they've turned their normal theory-given functions to matured purposes... a long range Ni vision that supports turning the regular Te for INTJ and Fe for INFJ to what looks like the other extroverted judging function? And they support it by the normal operation of a standard Ji? Or something?
    Well...they may be oblivious to the amount of energy required for them to use a function. And yes, we often talk about developing functions in service to the dominant. That's why people who accomplish great things often have a change of how they operate--who they're trying to influence/what credentials they believe they need/who they partner with/which arena they try to play in...because they harness those other functions in service to their mission or purpose, becoming more individuated, and therefore more effective.
    If the tertiary is malleable and comes to relative prominence in mid-life but in one or the other orientation, what was it before then? In the younger years while environment is working its magic, what was the tertiary? This is all covered by saying "while young, a person's tertiary function is for the most part undifferentiated, not easily accessible to consciousness and as yet of no determinate orientation"?
    Yeah, it wasn't under conscious control in any way. Parents who really understand type use the order of functions in figuring out how to discipline their children. Te who gets too crabby with a teacher? Time out to write apology notes gets at Ni--imagining losing that teacher's respect...and Fi--how would I feel without that? Etc.
    edcoaching

  6. #56
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    To roughly quote Naomi Quenk, who holds to the tertiary in the opposite attitude to the dominant, preference for a function includes a preference for its orientation, but doesn't preclude use of that preference in the other attitude. Hence the lack of need for eight functions in a row or at least in apparent order...
    The best thing I've come up with so far, is this model:

    Ni/Fe/Ti
    Ne/Fi/Te
    S

    Where the second tier rotates in and out of the top tier, which is the more comfortable tier for me. This could change depending on life circumstances however, like if I stop contemplating theory much and focus more on organizational household skills, I would be more like this, although is wouldn't be my ideal life circumstance:

    Ni/Fe/Te
    Ne/Fi/Ti
    S

    I guess what I think is that the dom and aux are relatively fixed, yet have help from the NINJA two functions on a relatively frequent basis that fall immediately below them. The bottom tier is not defined yet by me, but it is pulled as needed, or can be utilized for growth at various times.

    This model allows for a more 3 dimensional explanation of function usage, which is more applicable to a complex human mind.

    If a person shares his dom function role with 2 perceiving preferences, as is my theory depending on his genetics, say Ni and Si, his function model might appear like this:

    [Ni/Si]/Te/Fi
    [Ne/Se]/Ti/Fe

    If he splits between his N/S and F/T (both preferences), his function model might appear like this, with him being able to shift functions around pretty flexibly:

    [Ni/Si]/[Te/Fe]
    [Ne/Se]/[Ti/Fi]





    I think the tert function controversy exists because the interplay between the tert function attitude is so fluid in one's life. Yes, the dom and aux functions will remain relatively fixed, but that tert function will shape shift frequently.

    My hypothesis? That when it's aligned in the same attitude as the dominant function, you are achieving something. Call this growth or change or whatever; our ideal of living to our full capacity. When the tert is in the orientation opposite the dominant function, we are going on a tangent, living more of a status quo life, or just sort-of hanging out, either in our own mind (introverted attitude), or in the world(extraverted attitude). We are gaining ground when the tert is aligned with the dom, in other words.

    Just some ideas...........
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  7. #57
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    In this "ninja" analogy, think of the attitudes by themselves as doing the "swinging": not a complete function+attitude combination. It just means that the ego is changing the normal orientation of the associated function. Actually, it should just be
    i e i e
    NFTS
    e i e i,

    with i and e orbiting each function. The first two will be more stable, but the other two might switch more. Hence, many people having tertiary and inferior as the actual weakest functions (ala lasagna model)
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  8. #58
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    In this "ninja" analogy, think of the attitudes by themselves as doiglng the "swinging": not a complete function+attitude combination. It just means that the ego is changing the normal orientation of the associated function. Actually, it should just be
    i eie
    NFTS
    e ie i,

    with i and e orbiting each function. The first two will be more stable, but the other two might switch more. Hence, many people having tertiary and inferior as the actual weakest functions (ala lasagna model)

    Hah! I like it! I know you are the conceptual model Type C guru! But I'd call it more the spaghetti model. Because there's a lot of twisting around going on. I especially like how you worked the word "swinging" in there. Niice.

    And this is good except for those that have a preference split due to inherited genetic traits; someone that might have an N/S dom/codom model.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  9. #59
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    If you ask which order the functions are supposed to be in, you're missing the point altogether, at least if you're trying to use the MBTI in a realistic manner. The function lineups should be understood as more or less arbitrary orderings chosen for the sake of simplicity. Ideally, every possible ordering would have its own unique profile, but in practice, anything more than 16 types risks making things excessively complicated. The best thing you can do is look at which type you most relate to, and go from there. If you become fixated on finding the "right" function lineups, all you're doing is redefining what it means to be a member of a certain type.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  10. #60
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Hah! I like it! I know you are the conceptual model Type C guru! But I'd call it more the spaghetti model. Because there's a lot of twisting around going on. I especially like how you worked the word "swinging" in there. Niice.

    And this is good except for those that have a preference split due to inherited genetic traits; someone that might have an N/S dom/codom model.
    Funny thing; I don't even know where I got the word "swinging". I thought you used it, and was typing that on the phone, zooming in the screen because I forgot my glasses.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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