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  1. #41
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    So this is what Ne looks like without a judging function? All over the place and three times as complicated as my original understandings simply because of the unlimited possibilities considered? :confused:

    My negative reaction definitely fits with socionics though, EIEs Id block is Fi Ne:
    Interesting response. Is the tone of the text annoying to you or just the length and seeming discontinuity?

    Ne would annoy you as a Te dom. Especially when I am on an info mission.

    Sorry, it's how I roll. But as heart noted with a wee bit o' Fi and a bunch of weird fucked up Te to boot, so it isnt Ne in a vacuum.

    Jeno once gave me some very good feedback about NeTe though-it can make connections that are not backed up by Ti detail, so please let me know if my observations at some point seem off or inconsistent with what you have personally observed. I take models, apply them to data, then reforge models. If it doesnt fit, then something is broken and I say so. I love argument if my model or data is inaccurate, because then I can fix it. I have no attachment to dogma given the known flaws in the models.

  2. #42
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Isnt this sort of obvious-dom Te, Aux Te, Tert Te all differ?
    Obvious? No. Not yet, anyway.

    It would seem that extant characterisations of the functions are of the functions as they when they are dominant, which I presume means what the functions are when they are as fully conscious as they can be and pure, which seems to be to say when they are untainted by the presence of other functions. So, what are the functions when they exist in combination with other functions? Are they subsets of the pure function or are they the pure function refocused or are they qualitatively different entities altogether?

    And if we're asking questions like this are we importing individuality and pretending we can still speak of purity? That is, should we prioritise purity of function or identity of the person? If we prioritise identity, then it's hard to talk of developing a function and making it mature because the pure standard is no longer more important than whatever change in usage the person decides is development. But if personal identity is not an issue at all, then... um, I dunno, but something doesn't seem right.

    We know that functions do not exist in the pure form. We know that functions not dominant are subordinate in focus and usage to the dominant. We know that individuals can focus, perhaps temporarily, their function usage and bring less conscious functions into a conscious position, and perhaps thus make them temporarily dominant. And we know that whenever someone names a function, they are both pretending to talk of a pure function and at the same time probably importing personal experience of that kind of cognitive activity, so... um...

    There's some kind of screwy thing going on here. The closer we come to speaking of individuals the further we move from pure classification and the further we are from being able to talk cleanly of functional aspects of individuals. But the purpose of MBTI consultation is to begin that clean, segmented, particulate talk with a view to strengthening the individual. Isn't it? We hit the bleeding edge of the applicability of the model and keep going anyway because the alternative is full on Jungian analysis and the model is just easier and quicker? So, what are we really describing--reality or a shortcut?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #43
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Interesting response. Is the tone of the text annoying to you or just the length and seeming discontinuity?

    Ne would annoy you as a Te dom. Especially when I am on an info mission.

    Sorry, it's how I roll. But as heart noted with a wee bit o' Fi and a bunch of weird fucked up Te to boot, so it isnt Ne in a vacuum.

    Jeno once gave me some very good feedback about NeTe though-it can make connections that are not backed up by Ti detail, so please let me know if my observations at some point seem off or inconsistent with what you have personally observed. I take models, apply them to data, then reforge models. If it doesnt fit, then something is broken and I say so. I love argument if my model or data is inaccurate, because then I can fix it. I have no attachment to dogma given the known flaws in the models.
    BTW, Im a Fe dom. It was more of a humorous reaction. It felt like I was amidst a storm of chaos and I want to just say, "STOP! Ground all ships, and send them off ONE AT A TIME!...are we sure some of these flights arent redundant?"

  4. #44
    Pumpernickel
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    Psht I am no Si user!

  5. #45
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    Psht I am no Si user!
    ya...the EXACT thing I was thinking! I actually like how socionics makes it a point that Si is the absolute worst function of ENxJs

  6. #46
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    There's some kind of screwy thing going on here. The closer we come to speaking of individuals the further we move from pure classification and the further we are from being able to talk cleanly of functional aspects of individuals. But the purpose of MBTI consultation is to begin that clean, segmented, particulate talk with a view to strengthening the individual. Isn't it? We hit the bleeding edge of the applicability of the model and keep going anyway because the alternative is full on Jungian analysis and the model is just easier and quicker? So, what are we really describing--reality or a shortcut?
    Meh...you don't have to go beyond the first and second function for type to be useful and for people to find themselves. And that isn't a shortcut. It's the most useful part of the theory for everyday interactions. In fact if people could just develop their first and second functions well, the world would be a better place. If you think a majority have, go join a committee or a volunteer board somewhere...

    As for MBTI consultation...any good practitioner does take into account personal differences, if it's being used for counseling or coaching. That includes NOT assuming they even know how to use their first two functions. I often don't know their type results in the first meeting--we talk to see if it's even appropriate. The third and fourth functions...where they need to develop comes from conversations about goals, problems, relationship difficulties, tension at work, failed dreams, etc. It does not come from following a road map on how a type is supposed to develop.
    edcoaching

  7. #47
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Coach, you're blowing my mind here. Te in service of Fe inside one person... you don't get headaches? Lots of tension? I'm not mocking, I'm seriously trying see what a tertiary oriented opposite to the dominant would be like. For any type that had this, the auxiliary and the tertiary would be competing for the same mental energy, wouldn't they?

    I want to ask too, what's the difference between a cognitive function and an acquired mental skill set? Is there one? As I understand it, in the case of the tertiary, the answer is (within limits) there isn't a difference. The orientation of the tertiary function is, at least theoretically, a matter of choice and hard work...
    Well, otherwise you have the dominant and tertiary competing...why would that be any easier, even though you're pulled toward Perceiving or Judging?

    Cognitive function and acquired mental skill set...that's just it. Few people who really reflect on type come away thinking "I've mastered that third function! I've arrived." It always takes more conscious effort. For me Ti requires more effort that Te. Writing my doctoral dissertation was the most painful thing I've ever done--I had a matrix in front of me of exactly what points I was trying to make and the sequential, logical support and evidence for each point. And I was a professional writer/editor going into the program!! I"m working on another research journal article right now and I have to bribe myself to sit still and do it. My mind constantly shifts to possibilities for more research/what if we'd.../how could we use this in.... back to Ni.

    As far as any function in service to another, we can wrestle any function to conscious control if our mission is strong enough. Myers herself is a perfect example. INFP, dominant Fi, who actually invented two statistical processes that no one else used until there were supercomputers (she was simultaneously correlating multiple sets of items on a hand calculator back in the 1960's)--all T in service to her vision of (HONEST) world peace if people just better understood each other...
    edcoaching

  8. #48
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Meh...you don't have to go beyond the first and second function for type to be useful and for people to find themselves. And that isn't a shortcut. It's the most useful part of the theory for everyday interactions. In fact if people could just develop their first and second functions well, the world would be a better place. If you think a majority have, go join a committee or a volunteer board somewhere...
    Actually, I wanted to say thanks for pointing out the distinction between use and mature mastery. It is indeed something to reflect on and is illuminating.

    As for MBTI consultation...any good practitioner does take into account personal differences, if it's being used for counseling or coaching. That includes NOT assuming they even know how to use their first two functions. I often don't know their type results in the first meeting--we talk to see if it's even appropriate. The third and fourth functions...where they need to develop comes from conversations about goals, problems, relationship difficulties, tension at work, failed dreams, etc. It does not come from following a road map on how a type is supposed to develop.
    *grumble, grumble, grumble* A consultant with Fe would.

    Or probably any consultant would, but meanwhile I'm being Mr Systems. Particularly with respect to the subconscious. I've taken it to be true that subconscious functions have a significant effect on the operating parameters of the dominant and auxiliary functions. Thus it's preferable to get a theory handle on the tertiary and inferior somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Well, otherwise you have the dominant and tertiary competing...why would that be any easier, even though you're pulled toward Perceiving or Judging?
    True. But theoretically the competition is not nearly so direct. If the auxiliary and tertiary both have the same orientation, then they're both either perceiving or both judging, and both doing it on the same turf.

    Theoretically, if it's to be healthy, the tertiary will always bow to the auxiliary. Or be called into play when the auxiliary isn't looking. Or something like that. It sounds uncomfortable.

    PS. I'm still not attempting to say your self-report is wrong. I'm looking for how the theory should adjust to accommodate it.

    Cognitive function and acquired mental skill set...that's just it. Few people who really reflect on type come away thinking "I've mastered that third function! I've arrived." It always takes more conscious effort. For me Ti requires more effort that Te. Writing my doctoral dissertation was the most painful thing I've ever done--I had a matrix in front of me of exactly what points I was trying to make and the sequential, logical support and evidence for each point. And I was a professional writer/editor going into the program!! I"m working on another research journal article right now and I have to bribe myself to sit still and do it. My mind constantly shifts to possibilities for more research/what if we'd.../how could we use this in.... back to Ni.
    Well, see, I notice several things. For example, like you mentioned before, consciously choosing to exercise the inferior function provides rest and rejuvenation for the person. (Assuming of course that they don't go full on into "the grip"). I recognise this as true. But then I also believe inferior anxiety is real too. That built in thing where concerns about the operation of the inferior influence what one decides for major projects--like when the inferior function is supposed to be used in conjunction with all the others, not just for play. And those uses of the inferior seem much harder than play uses. Like, assuming an Se inferior, I can ride my bike and have a lot of fun, but actually operationalising some management decision is stressful, details go missing, and I overcompensate for lack of control, forcing more rules and tightening the screws harder on people who are meant to be cooperating.


    THE MODEL MUST STAND! If I am forced to deal directly with people as people I shall retreat to MY tertiary and lose my ability to think! AAARRGH!
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #49
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    THE MODEL MUST STAND! If I am forced to deal directly with people as people I shall retreat to MY tertiary and lose my ability to think! AAARRGH!
    But is this contrary to the model if the model really is...You develop a dominant and auxiliary that give you a way to perceive and judge, and a way to deal with the external and internal worlds. Myers and Briggs designed the 4-letter code to point to this order.

    The hardest thing to do is the inferior. It's a form of rest, yes, but as you say when you're forced to overuse it or use it under stress or forget that it would be a good idea to use it in certain circumstances (like Ni's noting where they park in multilevel ramps) it's a source of being in the grip.

    And the tertiary...well...is it against the model, really, if it turns out that it develops different ways based on family/education/culture/experiences?

    I'm in email conversations right now with two of the top type theorists. We're all doing this analysis and comparing notes. Two of us think our tertiary is opposite the dominant, one in the same attitude. And we're all old enough to have plenty to reflect on.

    I know it's not nice and neat. but life seldom is...
    edcoaching

  10. #50
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    *grumble, grumble, grumble* A consultant with Fe would.
    LOL I was just training a bunch of T coaches and they admitted, "We write the critique first. Then we go back in the email and put in, Good morning, how are you, how's the baby? Nice weather..." etc. They said, "We know how to do it and why we have to, but we really don't care whether they feel good about our email or not. We just want them to take action per our advice."

    How's that for use of tertiary or inferior as a skil...
    edcoaching

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