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  1. #21
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Jeesuz is right. Did you ever think you are not 'mimicing' anything and that you are really using Ne? Why do you guys try to twist everything up to fit function theories instead of accepting the obvious?
    Coz it's not obvious. If the eight function model a la Berens et al is right, then Ne would exist for me, but in fifth place, and would, following that model, require a much higher expenditure of energy to "do"--and that seems to me to match my experience. I can and have had in-the-moment AHA! experiences, but it feels a poopload more like drawing on stuff I already know than in making new connections per se. Plus, it doesn't happen very often at all, is exhausting to pursue, and frankly, if I'm extraverting perception at all, it totally just is much easier to physically stare than to intuit, and that would be Se. If being dom Ni meant relative ease with intuition in the opposite orientation, wouldn't Ne be easier than Se? It doesn't seem to me to be. Preferred function orientation does seem to be a meaningful restriction on what exists in the person. (Sample size: 1.)

    It seems obvious that one gains satisfaction and some kind of adaptive advantage by specialising ones cognitive operation, so I guess it's possible not that I don't have Ne, but that I avoid it so that Ni gets better play.

    Is that an adaptive, relatively conscious choice that dictates what is possible or is it an indication of what actually is possible independent of personal will?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  2. #22
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by purplesunset View Post
    How come this thread is getting all the responses, while my poor little thread which addresses a similar issue is left alone, neglected, and forlorn in the dark ?

    It's because the OP here is a regular, right? Darn you, board politics! I shake my fist at you, although my fist isn't exactly the most threatening-looking fist. My hands are a pianist's hands.
    I have no idea why one thread does better than another. Honestly, I click "new posts" at the top of the page and just respond to the most recent one.

    But I see your fist shake and raise you one booty shake.

  3. #23
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    And another thing, something good from the Manual...

    There's research into whole of type vs isolated function stuff suggesting that functions other than the dominant are NOT THE SAME as the same function when it's dominant. The research seems a bit wrong-headed inasmuch as they do things like take an INTJ and ENTJ and have naive observers say what they see in them, and they find big enough differences in the observations that the researchers decided to say means dominant Ni and auxiliary Ni are different beasts. A bit wrong-headed in that it seems like there would be a lot of "noise" in the data that wasn't specifically differences in dom and aux, but was other functions being observed instead. But be that as it may...

    Jung, in describing the functions, acknowledged somewhere briefly, that he was describing mythical people, persons who had full, free and complete use of a dominant function and were using nothing else!

    Which is to say... SOMETHING, I DON"T KNOW WHAT! Something like, by the time one gets as far into the psyche as the tertiary function, we're not looking at something quite the same as that function when it's dominant. Or are we?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #24
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Why do you guys try to twist everything up to fit function theories instead of accepting the obvious?
    Some have no vision, despite testing 20/20 on their last eye exam.

  5. #25
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    When I think about how ESFJs and ENFJs can "work a room" I'll agree that my use of Fe looks nothing like theirs. But there are lots of INFJs and INTJs who don't use Ni as well as I do, and lots who use it better.

    That doesn't discount the theory. Proof for the theory comes from USING it and seeing it have a positive impact in whatever application you're using it in.

    I think it's actually comforting that type isn't like a rats-in-a-maze or Pavlovian response sort of thing. Type is innate; how we express type is affected by all of the other factors like family, culture, education, trauma...
    edcoaching

  6. #26
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Coz it's not obvious. If the eight function model a la Berens et al is right, then Ne would exist for me, but in fifth place, and would, following that model, require a much higher expenditure of energy to "do"--and that seems to me to match my experience. I can and have had in-the-moment AHA! experiences, but it feels a poopload more like drawing on stuff I already know than in making new connections per se. Plus, it doesn't happen very often at all, is exhausting to pursue, and frankly, if I'm extraverting perception at all, it totally just is much easier to physically stare than to intuit, and that would be Se.
    I'm not questionning your type, but you are describing Si more than Ni. Ni IS 'aha' moments. Si is not. Running subjective scans on objective data from the external world into your internal world is Si. It's time consuming like Ni, but regards memory experience more than new imagining. Ni does see possibilities, but explores the one 'right' one.

    If being dom Ni meant relative ease with intuition in the opposite orientation, wouldn't Ne be easier than Se? It doesn't seem to me to be. Preferred function orientation does seem to be a meaningful restriction on what exists in the person. (Sample size: 1.)

    It seems obvious that one gains satisfaction and some kind of adaptive advantage by specialising ones cognitive operation,
    I think you are just regurgitating function theory stuff here. We really have no idea how the mind uses functions, or if it has difficulty using them. The whole 'stress' theory is interesting, but who knows how we use functions.

    so I guess it's possible not that I don't have Ne, but that I avoid it so that Ni gets better play.

    Is that an adaptive, relatively conscious choice that dictates what is possible or is it an indication of what actually is possible independent of personal will?
    I personally don't believe it's conscious at all. The mind works too fast, and processes too much information to need to consciously use functions, much less choose them.

    Well, I wonder if you're not more N/S than N/N (this is my own lingo, feel free to ignore it). I will list the traits of Si (according to my hartzler book):

    • I am aware of what is going on in my body, including my emo state
    • I collect detailed info, react to it, and store my internal reactions along with the info
    • I can vividly recall previous experiences, as well as internal reactions tied to the memories
    • I store and retrieve detailed info in the sequence in which it happened
    • I compare current experience against stored past impressions and experiences
    • I feel more comfortable when processes are repeatable
    • I am comfortable with and attempt to maintain traditions
    • I attempt to do tasks as efficiently as possible, thus conserving energy.
    And Se:

    • I notice, directly experience, and trust data provided by my five senses; seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, and tasting
    • I continuously scan the external world using my five senses for data
    • I have the ability to discriminate small differences between objects as I experience them
    • My attention tends to be on the present moment and current experience rather than the past or future
    • I focus on the context of the present situation
    • I seek sensory stim from the outer world
    • I recognize that the real world is exactly what it appears to be
    • When involved in a sport, I am able to "be the ball"
    And, finally Ne:

    • I scan the external world picking up patterns, connections, and interrelationships between people, objects, and events
    • I notice missing parts or steps in patterns
    • External events trigger my awareness of potential, alternatives, or patterns that then provide me with the basis for change
    • I see ways to change incongruous patterns, connections, and interrelationships
    • I take existing ideas and link them together in new and intersting ways
    • I generate usable possiblities for change in the external world
    • I constantly am looking for ways to change things to make them 'better' and have little energy for maintaining things as they are
    • I usually find something positive to see in situations
    I'd be interested to hear if any of these resonate with you........
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  7. #27
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post

    Myers did a ton of research (now in Step III) that gets at the development of the preferences and spent many more years on the theory than Jung did. Based on that research, she was predicting with 90% accuracy who would/wouldn't finish college; who would die shortly after med school and all kinds of other things--based on whether people showed signs of actually being able to use their preferences (having a preference isn't the same as having conscious, mature control of it, if you haven't noticed!!!)
    Could you maybe lead me to some more info on this stuff???

  8. #28
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    You can see a sample report at MBTI

    And, here's a blog from someone who went through the training and takes time to explain it. MBTI Step III | Ann Holm

    Most of my info comes from conference presentations by one of the developers and there's nothing in writing...
    edcoaching

  9. #29
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I'm not questionning your type, but you are describing Si more than Ni. Ni IS 'aha' moments. Si is not.
    AHA! moments that are directly generated in interaction with the outside world aren't Ni. AHA!'z appearing during reflection on inner images would be.

    I think you are just regurgitating function theory stuff here. We really have no idea how the mind uses functions, or if it has difficulty using them. The whole 'stress' theory is interesting, but who knows how we use functions.
    Thus the questions and one man's experience as a frame of reference. That the later questions are included means the experience is being opened up for interpretation. To eventually one day find the answer to how we use the functions.

    I personally don't believe it's conscious at all. The mind works too fast, and processes too much information to need to consciously use functions, much less choose them.
    "Choose" is meant to have a deeper meaning here than daily decision-making. More like, "orient" or "create", with respect to things like personality. As in statements like: "I enjoy Ni, so I *choose* to spend more time with it than with developing extraverted versions of intuition, and my choice is partly my own, partly whatever promoted intuition in my psyche in the first place."

    Meaning: what is the level of choice? Is there any? What is consciousness anyway?

    And so on.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  10. #30
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Lenore Thomson has suggested that it's the Puer complex that orients the tertiary into the dominant attitude. That's the "Tertiary Temptation". Think of an ego and four neutral functions. The ego chooses its preferred orientation, and dominant function, which is used in that orientation. The other functions and opposite orientation are initially rejected. Hence, all three being associated with the opposite orientation. But as the differentiate, the aux. and inferior continue to pull the ego to the opposite orientation, while the tertiary becomes associated with a "puer" (child) complex that resists by maintaining the dominant attitude. Hence, the alternating attitudes.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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