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  1. #41
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackandthebeast View Post

    Do I need to endorse Fe to show that I value it? Doesn't the fact that it selectively threatens my Fi mean that I place enough weight on it for it to be a threat to my higher priority?

    Why am I supposed to be endorsing Ti? It's in positions 3 and 7.
    How have I ben endorsing Te?
    okay. Now look at my post below VVVVVV ...Patterns C and D are not merely catagorized by Ni and Si. They also have Fe and Ti in pretty high up positions. You seem to not really be for those patterns beyond the Ni in C and the Si in D. Patterns A and B seem to be preferred, as you favor at the very least 2 out of the top 3 functions.

    Doesnt that just jump out at you as A and B being preferred over C and D? Its clear as day to me. I beg of you to not be afraid. No one here is trying to tell who to be. No one is telling you that you have start acting any different than you already do. No one is trying to limit your freedom. I have honestly listened to your preferences, and its fairly clear that you prefer patterns A and B over C and D.

    That would leave IXFP.


    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    And if you don't know where I'm getting this from, again, I use all the patterns simultaneously:

    A. Fi Ne Si Te Ni Fe Ti Se
    B. Fi Se Ni Te Si Fe Ti Ne
    C. Ni Fe Ti Se Fi Ne Si Te
    D. Si Fe Ti Ne Fi Se Ni Te
    ....1...2..3..4..5..6...7..8
    1. You said yourself that you prefer I over E and F over T. (cross them, and you get introverted Feeling; you yourself said you weren't using a 4 dichotomy model).

    2. Of the above 4 functional patterns, the last two (C and D) have a dominant function you identify with, followed by two that you definitely do not identify with (I have not heard any endorsement of Fe or Ti from you).

    3. A and B both have a dominant function that you identify with, followed by at least 1 out of 2 that you have stated to identify with.

    #1, #2 and #3, at the very least, point to you you being IXFP. This is based on your reported preferences. How does that sound?

  2. #42
    Senior Member jackandthebeast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    okay. Now look at my post below VVVVVV ...Patterns C and D are not merely catagorized by Ni and Si. They also have Fe and Ti in pretty high up positions. You seem to not really be for those patterns beyond the Ni in C and the Si in D. Patterns A and B seem to be preferred, as you favor at the very least 2 out of the top 3 functions.

    Doesnt that just jump out at you as A and B being preferred over C and D? Its clear as day to me. I beg of you to not be afraid. No one here is trying to tell who to be. No one is telling you that you have start acting any different than you already do. No one is trying to limit your freedom. I have honestly listened to your preferences, and its fairly clear that you prefer patterns A and B over C and D.

    That would leave IXFP.
    I don't feel that I have to start acting any differently than I already do. I just feel that you're missing something, and maybe it's be cause I'm not communicating it effectively, but..

    I just uploaded a video onto YouTube of me practicing a snippet from an informative speech I recently did for my Public Speaking class. I am kind of reading from it, so that does lessen the expressiveness, but I think you can still might be able to pick up some J from the video.

    YouTube - Movie 27

    Also, the valued function placements are 1,2,5, and 6 (1st and 3rd function blocks), so I don't see why I would be endorsing Ti, which is in placements 3 and 7.

  3. #43
    Senior Member jackandthebeast's Avatar
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    Actually, I think you may have stumbled upon something as far as Fe goes.

    I stated that I felt that I had been shamed by my XXXP friend and that it had caused me to change the way I processed information and had made me unhappy.

    It would make more sense that I would be able to suppress a way of valuing information than it would that I could somehow suppress the way I process it. I think I've suppressed my usage of Fe rather than my Ni or Si, which is probably why you don't see me endorsing it. I used to see an inherent suggestion in everything.

  4. #44
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackandthebeast View Post
    Qualification: people with T seem to also have trouble being in the moment, but for different reasons. I say this because my XXXP friend also has trouble stimulating himself.
    He doesn't, though, feel the need to fill every second with something.
    You implied by claiming Xs in your type that you are using a four-dichotomy MBTI model and not functional models.

    In functional terms, an XXXP type would have to be precisely equal in Ne, Se, Ti and Fi. Your IxFx type would have to be precisely in equal in Ni, Fi and Si. These are utter impossibilities from a functional standpoint. You don't have an XXXP friend; that's utter nonsense in functional terms! Even if you do value Ni>Ne, Fi>Fe and Si>Se (which is questionable in itself), all three of them would have to be exactly equal to each other for you to be IxFx in functional terms. You may not have used the phrase "exactly equal" but you implied it by claiming Xs in your type.

    The only way XXXP could even remotely make sense is from a four-dichotomy MBTI-only standpoint, so I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that was the perspective you were using. Now that you're directly claiming your friend is XXXP in cognitive function terms, it's quite obvious you don't know what you're talking about. No one is precisely equal in four different functions; you would suffer constant, enormous cognitive dissonance to the point of being totally unable to choose any perspective on anything.


    Quote Originally Posted by jackandthebeast View Post
    What is absolutely clear in this model though is that I value Ni more than Ne, Si more than Se, and Fi more than Fe, and that is something I have been saying.
    I would love to hear how you came up with this as your own functional order. Let me guess--the cognitive functions test told you?

    Quote Originally Posted by jackandthebeast View Post
    Or maybe that, as purplesunset has stated, my level of confusion regarding my functions makes sense, because, having a combination of four different functional patterns; and, in addition (this part I'm saying), having all of them pertain to introversion and feeling (end my statement) makes there a lot to be confused about.
    Or maybe it's that you don't understand what functional attitudes are and can't read functions very well.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackandthebeast View Post
    And if you don't know where I'm getting this from, again, I use all the patterns simultaneously:
    What a load of garbage. You are not using all the patterns simultaneously. You are not some omni-type with perfectly even perspective in all areas. The very framework of the theory disallows this possibility. Either reject the theory entirely and move on, or stop contradicting its most basic terms in your self-assessments based on the theory.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #45
    Senior Member jackandthebeast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    You implied by claiming Xs in your type that you are using a four-dichotomy MBTI model and not functional models.

    In functional terms, an XXXP type would have to be precisely equal in Ne, Se, Ti and Fi. Your IxFx type would have to be precisely in equal in Ni, Fi and Si. These are utter impossibilities from a functional standpoint. You don't have an XXXP friend; that's utter nonsense in functional terms! Even if you do value Ni>Ne, Fi>Fe and Si>Se (which is questionable in itself), all three of them would have to be exactly equal to each other for you to be IxFx in functional terms. You may not have used the phrase "exactly equal" but you implied it by claiming Xs in your type.
    Even if you have multiple leading functions, they are not equal if the other positions they are in are not equal. Fi in 1 and 5, Ni and Si in 1,3,5, and 7. I stated that.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    The only way XXXP could even remotely make sense is from a four-dichotomy MBTI-only standpoint, so I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that was the perspective you were using. Now that you're directly claiming your friend is XXXP in cognitive function terms, it's quite obvious you don't know what you're talking about. No one is precisely equal in four different functions; you would suffer constant, enormous cognitive dissonance to the point of being totally unable to choose any perspective on anything.
    Or the individual would develop a perspective that integrates the opposing functions.
    I would agree that it would cause mental dysfunction though. My XXXP friend has severe ADD, and tested as being in the 10th percentile for short-term memory.
    You or someone else seemed to want a list of my own issues, so here are some:
    I have trouble writing papers because I have a poor sense of sequence and don't know how to categorize/generalize information. Doing job applications last year I had to keep asking my parents for help on answering Yes/No questions and "on a scale of 1 to 5" questions, just because I can qualify everything, and depending on the subjective interpretation, I can answer the same question multiple ways.

    I don't intuit the way to go about doing things, and I constantly need to be reminded- for months I would call my mom from college to ask her questions as far as washing clothes because I didn't know how to apply the generalized instructions to the slightly altered context.

    Everything I do takes me a really long time to do, partly because there's always hesitation on how to go about it and partly because I am extremely detail-oriented and meticulous.

    I'm not aware of my surroundings. I don't drive, I can't cook (I've done pasta before but if I can't follow the instructions I can't tell when it's ready), I don't take the bus.

    Everything is a major project for me. Everything overwhelms me. I think if I ever had a full schedule I would completely shut down due to stress. I have experienced shut down on a pervasive scale because of something completely indeterminate that affected my mental state. I constantly need to balance my mental state normally because, as I've said, everything I let myself absorb affects my perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I would love to hear how you came up with this as your own functional order. Let me guess--the cognitive functions test told you?
    No, I said according to the pattern that would be my function order.
    I tried taking the test but I stopped because there was too much ambiguity in the questions for me to answer, and I felt that any answers I chose would be arbitrary. Like I said, I'm terrible with generalization.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    What a load of garbage. You are not using all the patterns simultaneously. You are not some omni-type with perfectly even perspective in all areas. The very framework of the theory disallows this possibility. Either reject the theory entirely and move on, or stop contradicting its most basic terms in your self-assessments based on the theory.
    Whatever terms you are referring to are not the same ones I see as basic to the theory, or I don't see my theory as contradicting them but addressing them with a qualification.

    Look, I'm done. I've tried to persuade whoever my audience is, and I failed. I know now that I need data or something before trying to present a theory like this.
    You're not going to persuade me that I'm wrong about what type I am, however. I'm guessing you're going to respond to my response, and I'll let you have the last word. Please don't take my silence as effective complicity with what you're saying. I've come to the realization that continuing to argue my point isn't getting me anywhere.

  6. #46
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackandthebeast View Post
    Even if you have multiple leading functions, they are not equal if the other positions they are in are not equal. Fi in 1 and 5, Ni and Si in 1,3,5, and 7. I stated that.



    Or the individual would develop a perspective that integrates the opposing functions.
    I would agree that it would cause mental dysfunction though. My XXXP friend has severe ADD, and tested as being in the 10th percentile for short-term memory.
    You or someone else seemed to want a list of my own issues, so here are some:
    I have trouble writing papers because I have a poor sense of sequence and don't know how to categorize/generalize information. Doing job applications last year I had to keep asking my parents for help on answering Yes/No questions and "on a scale of 1 to 5" questions, just because I can qualify everything, and depending on the subjective interpretation, I can answer the same question multiple ways.

    I don't intuit the way to go about doing things, and I constantly need to be reminded- for months I would call my mom from college to ask her questions as far as washing clothes because I didn't know how to apply the generalized instructions to the slightly altered context.

    Everything I do takes me a really long time to do, partly because there's always hesitation on how to go about it and partly because I am extremely detail-oriented and meticulous.

    I'm not aware of my surroundings. I don't drive, I can't cook (I've done pasta before but if I can't follow the instructions I can't tell when it's ready), I don't take the bus.

    Everything is a major project for me. Everything overwhelms me. I think if I ever had a full schedule I would completely shut down due to stress. I have experienced shut down on a pervasive scale because of something completely indeterminate that affected my mental state. I constantly need to balance my mental state normally because, as I've said, everything I let myself absorb affects my perspective.
    1. Ive almost deductively proven that you are at the least IXFP based on the information you have given (and simulated noted similar logical necessities based on your information)

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1063795

    2. based on your most recent post. You struggle to get anything done, this might be poor Te, which is EXACTLY what the standard theory says about IXFPs. You clearly are not a Ti or a Fe person either (by your own cautious admissions).

    3. I highly suggest you look into "the tertiary temptation". You are locking into introverted function loops. For example the ISFP:
    --Fi Se Ni Te
    --Rather than develop the auxiliary to help you do things in the real world, you run to tertiary Ni in order to stay in the introverted plane of existence. The theory would state that you might become a healthier individual if you were to develop some Se instead of running to the tertiary Ni.

    Philosophical Exegesis

    Extraverted Sensation (Se) makes sense of the world by attending to what exists concretely here and now, and trusting your instincts. As an epistemological perspective, Se leads you to believe only in what you can see and experience concretely, and to trust your immediate, gut-level responses to it. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, then it's a duck. Whatever a sign means is obvious and inescapable; if a sign's meaning is not obvious, then it's meaningless. Whatever is physical, immediate, gut-level cannot be faked and must be right. For example, if you sense that someone is up to no good, then you trust that sense. If you have an impulse to paint the town red, then you go out and do so. As an ethical perspective, Se leads you to believe that life is to be lived right now, "in the moment", responding to things immediately and without thought. What matters most in life is what makes the biggest perceivable impact, whatever stands out in a way that can't be ignored. Se leads you to develop a persona that is attractive and "hip" according to the conventions of your society and your time--to go with the flow without stopping to question the direction. If something isn't fun, then don't do it.
    Introverted Intuition (Ni) focuses on what is inexpressible--the incommensurable and chaotic things that exist outside of any conceptual framework. For example, what do you hear in the theme-and-variations movement of Beethoven's String Quartet Op. 131? There is a meaning there, but you can't put it into words. Any attempt to put it into words will result in only a tawdry parody of the reality. Better to remain silent. As an epistemological perspective, Ni leads you to view all signs as meaningless or even deceptive, not necessarily connected to what they're supposed to represent. The true reality is something that exists beyond all signs and appearances, and can only be apprehended by a kind of direct intuition. To learn truth, one must learn to see through appearances--to make contact with a reality that cannot be seen or said. As an ethical perspective, Ni leads you to hold yourself apart from and unaffected by the meanings that others attach to words and events--to keep your own vision pure and pursue your own path regardless of evidence, reasons, or the opinions of others.
    symptoms of introverted tertiary temptation:
    --inability to connect external criticism, data and reality to your situation, perspective and yourself
    --inability to take action in the real world to alleviate ruminating about possible problems.
    --constant looping between your own introverted perspectives without ever taking inventory of the external reality.

    Please, for the love of god develop some Se! Its not too late to save yourself from Ayn Rand Syndrome!

  7. #47
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    lol @ Ayn Rand Syndrome

    what is that, Fi+Ni?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #48
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    lol @ Ayn Rand Syndrome

    what is that, Fi+Ni?
    Ayn Rand syndrome originally refers to the tertiary temptation of Dom Ni only feeding through tertiary Fi. However, upon noticing earlier this year that all introverts, in their tertiary temptation loop, make similar mistakes, I expanded the syndrome label to include them.

    Basically its where your dominant feels upset about the external data coming in (that is invalidating the dominant world view) and thus they jump to the tertiary to justify their dominant (completely divorcing themselves from external reality, external data, external opinion etc).

    I havent thought of a good name for the extroverted version of the dom-tert syndrome.

  9. #49
    Senior Member jackandthebeast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    1. Ive almost deductively proven that you are at the least IXFP based on the information you have given (and simulated noted similar logical necessities based on your information)

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1063795

    2. based on your most recent post. You struggle to get anything done, this might be poor Te, which is EXACTLY what the standard theory says about IXFPs. You clearly are not a Ti or a Fe person either (by your own cautious admissions).

    3. I highly suggest you look into "the tertiary temptation". You are locking into introverted function loops. For example the ISFP:
    --Fi Se Ni Te
    --Rather than develop the auxiliary to help you do things in the real world, you run to tertiary Ni in order to stay in the introverted plane of existence. The theory would state that you might become a healthier individual if you were to develop some Se instead of running to the tertiary Ni.

    Philosophical Exegesis





    symptoms of introverted tertiary temptation:
    --inability to connect external criticism, data and reality to your situation, perspective and yourself
    --inability to take action in the real world to alleviate ruminating about possible problems.
    --constant looping between your own introverted perspectives without ever taking inventory of the external reality.

    Please, for the love of god develop some Se! Its not too late to save yourself from Ayn Rand Syndrome!

    I actually do want to address your post, Babylon Candle, because you've introduced new information that I want to respond to(and technically I never said I would give you the last word ); however, I'm going to wait a few days to do so as this is the week preceding Spring Break, and I also want to give myself time to properly evaluate the Tertiary Temptation thing and exactly how it bears on my argument before framing a response.
    I would definitely agree though that I am in the tertiary temptation loop.

  10. #50
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackandthebeast View Post
    I would definitely agree though that I am in the tertiary temptation loop.
    Then you're not precisely equal in Fi, Ni and Si, as your IxFx label would imply. If you even have particular dominant and tertiary functions, you cannot be an X type.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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