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  1. #1
    Senior Member sofmarhof's Avatar
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    Default Why does Ti always go with Fe and Fi with Te?

    This is a variation on bunch of Ti/Fe/Fi/Te posts there always are but I haven't seen this exact question asked, sorry if it has been.

    Anyway, everybody uses and introverted and an extroverted judging function. But why? Actually I think my question is clearer if MBTI terminology is avoided so I'm going to try to do that—you might not like the way I define the functions but please interpret that as me expressing myself poorly rather than me understanding them poorly. And so the question is:

    Why does logical thought motivated by no practical objective, pursued for its own sake, tend to go hand in hand with a flexible, relationship-based emotional attitude?

    Why does an individualistic, resolute emotional outlook tend to pair up with goal-oriented logic?


    That is, why does Ti always go with Fe and Fi with Te? But the answer's not "because everybody needs to use an introverted and an extroverted judging function", that's equivalent to just saying "because they do".

    Since ExxPs and IxxJs have thinking and feeling as their second and third functions, they might the most useful examples for explaining this (as opposed to IxxPs and ExxJs, too unbalanced).

  2. #2
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    No one will be able to give you any answer aside from "well, that's just how function order is set up".

    But, the truth is, function order theory is jacked up, and doesn't neatly pan out that way in reality.

    There are Ti users who use more Fi than Fe (actually, this is often the case), and there are Fi users who use more Ti than Te.

  3. #3
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Great question.

    I'm curious to hear answers.

  4. #4
    Senior Member sofmarhof's Avatar
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    Well, you can't take it too seriously. I wouldn't necessarily say it's always always Ti/Fe or Fi/Te—but when I think about the people I know, it does usually work out that way.

    But I think the question can be answered more satisfactorily.

  5. #5
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofmarhof View Post
    Why does logical thought motivated by no practical objective, pursued for its own sake, tend to go hand in hand with a flexible, relationship-based emotional attitude?

    Why does an individualistic, resolute emotional outlook tend to pair up with goal-oriented logic?


    That is, why does Ti always go with Fe and Fi with Te? But the answer's not "because everybody needs to use an introverted and an extroverted judging function", that's equivalent to just saying "because they do".
    No, it's actually NOT arbitrary -- from the theoretical POV.

    While it still needs to be shown in practice, the theory assumes that capable healthy people prefer functions that can work together in sync and not conflict with each other. This is why it is assumed that the primary secondary pair has to cover extroverted/introverted terrain, as well as judging/perceiving function terrain. This way, the person is most "fully functional" because they've developed functions that allow them to best engage the world.

    Why is the tertiary function the opposite cog function in the same judging/perceiving category and not something else? I'm going to guess that the inferior was actually determined first (the primary, secondary, and inferior functions seem the most obvious IRL), and the tertiary seemed to fit whatever data they had, reasonably, and was also theoretically the "most sense." (Sort of like the sequence problems you find on an IQ test -- what's the "missing symbol"?).

    It also gets assigned an opposing I/E preference in order to theoretically "fill the niche" that the person would have left uncovered by their secondary.

    Since the theory seemed to be purposefully balanced (and thus theoretical, rather than drawn entirely from exact data), this is how I see the theory "balancing itself." It's like getting algebra problems and figuring out what missing equation will make everything work... but of course, that doesn't mean it reflects reality.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #6
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    It is important as a balance. Something must always restrict the other. If Te is to do something, there must be an opposing force to level it to a reasonable degree which is of course Fi. It is like a balance on a scale where there is one side and another opposing side for the same thing. If Te is on one side and no Fi is on the other you have the Te part of the scale falling down to the ultimate bottom in which case someone would most likely have a psychological disorder... Fe will not work in the same way Fi does for Te so it does not go on the same scale HOWEVER there is another scale for a totally different aspect of personality for Te and Fe indicating what you are.

    Same thing could be said for Ti and Fe.

  7. #7
    Senior Member sofmarhof's Avatar
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    Jennifer: so are you saying that Fi and Ti necessarily contradict/conflict with each other? And that Ti and Te do the same? But is there a less process-of-elimination answer?

    I suppose I'm looking for how it works as much as why, that's why I was pushing for avoiding MBTI terminology.

  8. #8
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    I think the Fe/Ti and Fi/Te sets are united by an underlying attitude that is the same in each case. I also believe this for Si/Ne and Se/Ni,.

    I think Fe/Ti are unified because they are both "global" decision making processes. Ti wants to fit everything together into a logical, self consistent whole. Opinions are greately shaped by what already exists. If something doesn't fit the picture, than this a point of concern.

    Fe tries to fit people/things together to see how they fit into the larger social picture. Opinions are greately shaped by the prevailing needs and concerns of society. That doesn't mean Fe types are necesarily conformists (though they can be). They may well choice to go against everything there society believes in, perhaps to demonstrate the benefits that might be available if more people do the same, or because they are feeling rebelious and thus us society at large to define what they are not .

    Fi/Te is "centralised". Decisions are made according to some guiding principal that stands outside other concerns. In the case of Te that principal is completing the objective, whatever that might be. Decisions are made according to how they help meet that objective.

    For Fi the centralised principal is the persons own feelings/beliefs. Decisions are made in accordance to how they fit into those personal factors.

    I can share my thoughts on the percieving functions as well, if anyone is interested.

  9. #9
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofmarhof View Post
    Jennifer: so are you saying that Fi and Ti necessarily contradict/conflict with each other? And that Ti and Te do the same? But is there a less process-of-elimination answer?

    I suppose I'm looking for how it works as much as why, that's why I was pushing for avoiding MBTI terminology.
    RagiK sensed it too -- stable healthy people are not imbalanced and do not evolve toward imbalance (we want stability), and a different setup would create more [potential for] imbalance.

    Yes, Fi and Ti contradict each other... although less and less, the more the Fi valueset matches the Ti valueset. Same thing for Fe and Te.

    This is also why Fi is assigned "demon" slot for Ti and vice versa, etc. (The 8th position.) There is an immediate inherent conflict between the personal and the impersonal, lessened by how much the valuesets happen to be similar... but they use different priorities to draw conclusions. They listen to different voices. Either you listen to your internal values or you take a more impersonal approach. You can't really do both at once, and people tend to favor one over the other (either you TRUST that inner voice -- Fi -- or you try to detach from it in order to "keep your logic clear" -- Ti).

    Te and Fe can sometimes coexist a bit better, I think; but often there is a difference between how an adminstrator will approach an organization (Te) vs how Human Resources will approach it. The admin is thinking about the group as a whole in terms of practical output and functionality and people can be more expendable. Fe is far more concerned with the rights of the individual as part of the overall collective, regardless of the person's efficiency and/or more detached priorities. (Te: "They aren't a good skills fit, they aren't producing enough, etc." Fe: "You can't fire them, you have obligations to them as people" as a possible response.) The thing here is that, again, the priority is different, and when priorities differ, cog functions comes into conflict.

    It's easy for the introverted/extroverted opposites of a judging or perceiving pair to work together than for the non-opposites.

    ... but this is just theory. In real life, we do see people develop cog functions in non-theory-specified ways, and sometimes we do see people build up similar pairs (such as Ti+Te, or Fi+Fe). But usually one dominates... because there is still the "direction" (intro/extro) that can come into conflict, because of differing scope.

    It seems easiest for Ti/Fe and Fi/Te to work together because they conflict the least with each other from a theory POV. They can still both honor their own priorities the easiest, and even help each other work in tandem.

    ..... EDIT: Andy raises some interesting points. Sure, please talk about the perceiving functions.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #10
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Ti and Fe, along with the other function pairings, are two parts of a whole. Fe and Ti feed each other as well. Same with the other function pairings. Unfortunately the dominant and inferior are pretty off balance in people usually, so the inferior can't really feed the dominant. The tertiary and auxillary however do a lot of work with each other in a person usually for personal growth.

    Another thing to keep in mind, is that we are going with a 4 function theory. There are 4 function types- Ji, Je, Pi, and Pe. These are all expressed in different ways, I'm sure you can see very distinct differences in IPs, IJs, EPs, and EJs. That's what I'm talking about. The 4 function types perform a specific type of cognition that everyone does to some degree, some do some more, some do some less. That's where we have the first and last letters.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

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