Why does Ti always go with Fe and Fi with Te?

[onemoretime]

Bzzzt. That attempt at making a point through inversion unfortunately was not correct. We have some lovely parting gifts...

Fe preserves the objective rules of a social structure, by impeding those who disrupt this structure. To Fi/Te types, this seems like imposition, but it's really not - the structure is already there. It would exist absent the particular person who sees things with Fe/Ti, and as such, that person does not impose it.

 

[Poki]

Bzzzt. That attempt at making a point through inversion unfortunately was not correct. We have some lovely parting gifts...

Fe preserves the objective rules of a social structure, by impeding those who disrupt this structure. To Fi/Te types, this seems like imposition, but it's really not - the structure is already there. It would exist absent the particular person who sees things with Fe/Ti, and as such, that person does not impose it.

The bolded part is what "should be" or subjective Ti.

Have you ever been on a vacation with an ENFJ, and then on a vacation with Non dom Fe types? Things go from one big group outing to 4 people doing as they please sometimes doing a social thing, sometimes not and not really caring. My inferior Fe did not a thing. This is "what is" based on my perception of actual situations.

 

[onemoretime]

The bolded part is what "should be" or subjective Ti.

Have you ever been on a vacation with an ENFJ, and then on a vacation with Non dom Fe types? Things go from one big group outing to 4 people doing as they please sometimes doing a social thing, sometimes not and not really caring. My inferior Fe did not a thing. This is "what is" based on my perception of actual situations.

Have you ever been on vacation with an ENFJ? Sure about that?

 

[Poki]

Have you ever been on vacation with an ENFJ? Sure about that?

My wife is ENFJ

 

[onemoretime]

Is she? Or is she your wife?

 

[Poki]

Is she? Or is she your wife?

She is like this in every aspect of her life. She does this to a fault(causes issues for her) and will admit to it and she is making the choice to pull back the reigns.

In the same manner I am working on going into Se more and getting out of Ti as I am in their to a fault and trying to learn how to recognize this.

 

[milkyway2]

This is why I get along great with my boyfriend now and we pretty much are complete opposites in every way. And I did not get along with my ex who was a lot similar.....

 

[uumlau]

Shoulda set a timer as to how long it would be before a Te-Fi'er came to dispute this.

I think you're reading Ti and Fi as if these are the "real" core of a person.

I'm not disputing it so much as WTF-ing it. You have a very idealized picture of Te imposing its will on the world. The burden is on you to demonstrate your point, not on me to disprove it to you.

Te imposes its will upon the world. Why does it do this? It stems from subjective valuation, i.e. what it thinks "should be". The determination of "what should be" does indeed filter through the dominant perceiving function, but it still ultimately sources from the TeFi axis.

These are assertions. Demonstrate your point.

Fe desires the maintenance of social stability. Why does it do this? It stems from objective determination, that is, the "what is" of the social structure as it exists. This, too, filters through the dominant perceiving function, but as above, sources from the FeTi axis.

More assertions, and the bolded is especially wrong. Fe is a judging function. It doesn't desire anything in particular, any more than Fi desires anything. Fe and Fi are perspectives, ways of looking at the world. These perspectives can show how we can look at the same things and interpret them completely differently, but there's nothing about any judging function that makes it particularly desire any particular value, any more than it has to do with whether one likes vanilla or chocolate.

 

[Kalach]

Te depends on the personal sense of "correctness" to function externally

Te/Fi people may, indeed likely will, choose where and when to engage Te, but when it's engaged, its function is to conclude "truths" that follow from the outer world as is.

And those Te users who place Te above most other functions will in general simply keep concluding such truths as a matter of course. This is no more mysterious than saying an Ne dom will as a matter of course make connections when stuff happens in front of them.

Your bold attempt to make all Te users introverts can [something rude, couldn't think of a joke in time].

 

[Venom]

"Why does Ti always go with Fe and Fi with Te?"

actually this relationship exists mostly in J-doms.
and the opposite J is their shadow.

so you can say that it "comes along with" the opposite J and you can say that it "goes against" the opposite J.

and "why" is a complex question. because god wanted it to be this way? because it has been observed and was written down?

but it's not surprising that the shadow works against "you", is it?

and i don't think it makes sense to define a shadow as something entirely static.
it responds to you. if you are P-dom and use your secondary J a lot, your shadow might just respond with your opposite J a lot.

the shadow has all the possibilities, but it has probabilities as well.

in the big picture of your live, your decisions are created by your dominant function and they are kept in between boundaries by the opposite of your dominant function.

and why is it so easy to observe the J-J conflict?

because J functions can be more easily identified via theory of mind, if communication is the object ob observation. they corrupt interpretations and leave an obvious handwriting. the P functions can be identified by actions, readiness and certain skills - factors that are comparably elusive in communication.

is there a necessary conflict?

not in theoretical utopia.

don't confuse functions with their contents or conditioning:
the developmental learning task of every function is to work together not against other functions.

example: if you are Fe-dom or Fe-secondary:

to develop your shadow-Fi you must access Fe consciously, understand what it does and why, then stop Fe from discriminating Fi. then Fi will start to talk to you and say what it wants.

a matter of adjusting your understanding and attitudes and forgiving and giving up specific attachments to ideas or preferences.

this is true for the opposites of introversion in the same functions. (Ti vs Te, Se vs Si, ....)

----

i don't see a hard opposition between introversion of one function and extroversion of the other function. (Ti vs Fe, Te vs Fi, Se vs Ni, Ne vs Si)

this is, i believe, why those shadow qualities become so obvious.

a Ti-dom is unable to suppress his Fe because he does not even recognize it. so the Fe shadow becomes a mighty live force. but it has very odd characteristics, compared to the Fe of an enfj, because it's not flexibly concerned with the immediate situations but with some general live theme, like a code of honor of a soldier for example. so Ti-doms are enslaved by Fe and any conscious conflict with Fe is a result of this, not the origin, but more often there is no conflict and Ti-dom are stubbornly identified with their Fe attitudes, similarly to how someone "is identified with an offender" in a stockholm syndrom.

likewise the Ni-dom is unable to suppress Se, so Se becomes a mighty active ruler of the Ni-dom's live theme. as such it's enslaving not empowering. its the voice of paranoia. dooms-day dreams.

so this kind of conflict is hardened by conditioning at it needs some kind of therapy in the broadest sense of the world to ease the conflict.

---

but Ni-dominance can suppress Ne, so the lack of Ne becomes a dominant factor in live.
and Ti can suppress Te so the lack of Te can become a dominant factor in live.
so this is a hard and direct conflict (Ni vs Ne, Ti vs Te, Se vs Si, ...) which is often conscious.
but i believe such conflict can naturally be transcended by sort of loosing yourself in some kind of demanding activity.

If this is your sig:

Intuitive Ethical Introvert [Ni/Si] [Fe/Te]. Perceiver is perceiving you.

then how are you not a J???????????

 

[nanook]

then how are you not a J???????????

i am off topic. try this thread

 

[Andy]

Bzzzt. That attempt at making a point through inversion unfortunately was not correct. We have some lovely parting gifts...

Fe preserves the objective rules of a social structure, by impeding those who disrupt this structure. To Fi/Te types, this seems like imposition, but it's really not - the structure is already there. It would exist absent the particular person who sees things with Fe/Ti, and as such, that person does not impose it.

Incorrect. The nature of Fe is to be concerned with social structure. Whether or not the Fe user approves of it is a different question. An Fe user may well seak to completely reshape society, especially when focused through Ni as in the NFJs. Such an Fe user does anything except preserve social structure.

 

[nanook]

very true. however he preserves his own ideas of social structures and does impede those who disrupt his ideals. immediately. as the enfj is often charismatic he has usually a bunch of united "friends of his social style", so the structure he preserves or fights for is often the structure that is already established, as others accept the "felt" majority which is actually a minority. they don't bother to disagree with it enough to prevent it from becoming established.

i guess the point is, that his ideas about social structure are not individualistic but predictable simple forms, they are memes, that is the principle or extroverted normalization. the individuality is in the shadow.

now if you think meme you must think stages.
meaning the exfj is only a "rebel" when he is coming from another stage than most people.

 

[onemoretime]

very true. however he preserves his own ideas of social structures and does impede those who disrupt his ideals. immediately. as the enfj is often charismatic he has usually a bunch of united "friends of his social style", so the structure he preserves or fights for is often the structure that is already established, as others accept the "felt" majority which is actually a minority. they don't bother to disagree with it enough to prevent it from becoming established.

i guess the point is, that his ideas about social structure are not individualistic but predictable simple forms, they are memes, that is the principle or extroverted normalization. the individuality is in the shadow.

now if you think meme you must think stages.
meaning the exfj is only a "rebel" when he is coming from another stage than most people.

Thanks for putting it better than I did. That's a very good way of putting it - both Ti/Fe deal with memes, while Te/Fi are disinclined toward this style of information handling (even though they inevitably are influenced by it).

 

[Poki]

Te is about social structure as well. Are you saying the government, army, churches are all FJ driven entities?

 

[onemoretime]

Te is about social structure as well. Are you saying the government, army, churches are all FJ driven entities?

Yes. Actors within them may be Te-oriented, but the structure as a whole is entirely enforced by Fe-values (patriotism, esprit de corps, fellowship)

 

[nanook]

no, everyone contributes to social space in his way, of course. the conservative agenda is often more inspired by introverted judgment and by thinking in general. and obviously the conservative agenda has been influential. they don't have to act and they couldn't if they tried. meaning creative acting. of course they can self-censor or lie about stuff.

 

[Poki]

no, everyone contributes to social space in his way, of course. the conservative agenda is often more inspired by introverted judgment and by thinking in general. and obviously the conservative agenda has been influential. they don't have to act and they couldn't if they tried. meaning creative acting. of course they can self-censor or lie about stuff.

conservative is driven by the past and tradition, one isnt required to make any internal judgement after one decides to follow the path we have followed in the past. Thinking can encompass many aspects including introverted perception. Dont confuse the fact that a path was charted with them actually making an internal decision, especially when they are just following conservative ways. This method of being conservative is purely analysis and a comparison of the current data with the past data. Requires black and white logic. Ti and Fi has always been a fuzzy logic.

 

[Poki]

Yes. Actors within them may be Te-oriented, but the structure as a whole is entirely enforced by Fe-values (patriotism, esprit de corps, fellowship)

Its an Fi based patriotism and that is driven by a less mature internal feeling judgement at times(sorry I am very patriotic, but it is taken to far at times and becomes immature, this patriotism isnt driven by Fi within me). This drive of patriotism you talk about is driven by internal feelings. Its the same patriotism that says destroy this other country because they harmed us. Dont confuse Fi turned externally with Fe. Fe itself forces Fi into the subconcious as eric has mentioned numerous times. The "Fe" that is here whether Fe imposes it or not is a psuedo or fake Fe. It is Fi turned externally. Its not patriotism for the mere act, its patriotism driven by feelings, not merely for the better of society.

 

[uumlau]

Conservatism? Patriotism?

Hell, why not just say that LOVE is particular to one single judging function, and now we get to argue about which one is "real" love and the other is fake?

There's a bunch of assumptions being made, here, without recourse to first principles.

In an effort to get things back on track, what is the typical "style" of Fi/Te, and what is the "style" of Ti/Fe? Forget specific values, forget the emotional and prejudiced baggage we want to attach. How do they "work", such that one might regard INTJ as similar to INFP, and INFJ as similar to INTP (and so on)?