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  1. #51
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    then how are you not a J???????????
    i am off topic. try this thread

  2. #52
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Bzzzt. That attempt at making a point through inversion unfortunately was not correct. We have some lovely parting gifts...

    Fe preserves the objective rules of a social structure, by impeding those who disrupt this structure. To Fi/Te types, this seems like imposition, but it's really not - the structure is already there. It would exist absent the particular person who sees things with Fe/Ti, and as such, that person does not impose it.
    Incorrect. The nature of Fe is to be concerned with social structure. Whether or not the Fe user approves of it is a different question. An Fe user may well seak to completely reshape society, especially when focused through Ni as in the NFJs. Such an Fe user does anything except preserve social structure.

  3. #53
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    very true. however he preserves his own ideas of social structures and does impede those who disrupt his ideals. immediately. as the enfj is often charismatic he has usually a bunch of united "friends of his social style", so the structure he preserves or fights for is often the structure that is already established, as others accept the "felt" majority which is actually a minority. they don't bother to disagree with it enough to prevent it from becoming established.

    i guess the point is, that his ideas about social structure are not individualistic but predictable simple forms, they are memes, that is the principle or extroverted normalization. the individuality is in the shadow.

    now if you think meme you must think stages.
    meaning the exfj is only a "rebel" when he is coming from another stage than most people.

  4. #54
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    very true. however he preserves his own ideas of social structures and does impede those who disrupt his ideals. immediately. as the enfj is often charismatic he has usually a bunch of united "friends of his social style", so the structure he preserves or fights for is often the structure that is already established, as others accept the "felt" majority which is actually a minority. they don't bother to disagree with it enough to prevent it from becoming established.

    i guess the point is, that his ideas about social structure are not individualistic but predictable simple forms, they are memes, that is the principle or extroverted normalization. the individuality is in the shadow.

    now if you think meme you must think stages.
    meaning the exfj is only a "rebel" when he is coming from another stage than most people.
    Thanks for putting it better than I did. That's a very good way of putting it - both Ti/Fe deal with memes, while Te/Fi are disinclined toward this style of information handling (even though they inevitably are influenced by it).

  5. #55
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    Te is about social structure as well. Are you saying the government, army, churches are all FJ driven entities?
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #56
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Te is about social structure as well. Are you saying the government, army, churches are all FJ driven entities?
    Yes. Actors within them may be Te-oriented, but the structure as a whole is entirely enforced by Fe-values (patriotism, esprit de corps, fellowship)

  7. #57
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    no, everyone contributes to social space in his way, of course. the conservative agenda is often more inspired by introverted judgment and by thinking in general. and obviously the conservative agenda has been influential. they don't have to act and they couldn't if they tried. meaning creative acting. of course they can self-censor or lie about stuff.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    no, everyone contributes to social space in his way, of course. the conservative agenda is often more inspired by introverted judgment and by thinking in general. and obviously the conservative agenda has been influential. they don't have to act and they couldn't if they tried. meaning creative acting. of course they can self-censor or lie about stuff.
    conservative is driven by the past and tradition, one isnt required to make any internal judgement after one decides to follow the path we have followed in the past. Thinking can encompass many aspects including introverted perception. Dont confuse the fact that a path was charted with them actually making an internal decision, especially when they are just following conservative ways. This method of being conservative is purely analysis and a comparison of the current data with the past data. Requires black and white logic. Ti and Fi has always been a fuzzy logic.
    Im out, its been fun

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Yes. Actors within them may be Te-oriented, but the structure as a whole is entirely enforced by Fe-values (patriotism, esprit de corps, fellowship)
    Its an Fi based patriotism and that is driven by a less mature internal feeling judgement at times(sorry I am very patriotic, but it is taken to far at times and becomes immature, this patriotism isnt driven by Fi within me). This drive of patriotism you talk about is driven by internal feelings. Its the same patriotism that says destroy this other country because they harmed us. Dont confuse Fi turned externally with Fe. Fe itself forces Fi into the subconcious as eric has mentioned numerous times. The "Fe" that is here whether Fe imposes it or not is a psuedo or fake Fe. It is Fi turned externally. Its not patriotism for the mere act, its patriotism driven by feelings, not merely for the better of society.
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #60
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Conservatism? Patriotism?

    Hell, why not just say that LOVE is particular to one single judging function, and now we get to argue about which one is "real" love and the other is fake?

    There's a bunch of assumptions being made, here, without recourse to first principles.

    In an effort to get things back on track, what is the typical "style" of Fi/Te, and what is the "style" of Ti/Fe? Forget specific values, forget the emotional and prejudiced baggage we want to attach. How do they "work", such that one might regard INTJ as similar to INFP, and INFJ as similar to INTP (and so on)?

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