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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofmarhof View Post
    This is a variation on bunch of Ti/Fe/Fi/Te posts there always are but I haven't seen this exact question asked, sorry if it has been.

    Anyway, everybody uses and introverted and an extroverted judging function. But why? Actually I think my question is clearer if MBTI terminology is avoided so I'm going to try to do thatyou might not like the way I define the functions but please interpret that as me expressing myself poorly rather than me understanding them poorly. And so the question is:

    Why does logical thought motivated by no practical objective, pursued for its own sake, tend to go hand in hand with a flexible, relationship-based emotional attitude?

    Why does an individualistic, resolute emotional outlook tend to pair up with goal-oriented logic?


    That is, why does Ti always go with Fe and Fi with Te? But the answer's not "because everybody needs to use an introverted and an extroverted judging function", that's equivalent to just saying "because they do".

    Since ExxPs and IxxJs have thinking and feeling as their second and third functions, they might the most useful examples for explaining this (as opposed to IxxPs and ExxJs, too unbalanced).
    The stupid and obvious answer is the correct one; you can't have conflicting (oppositional) preferences and still function (well); it's a bit like trying to walk by putting both feet forward at the same time or contracting your quads and hamstrings at the same time. Oppositional judging or perceptive functions (Ti/Fi; Fe/Te, etc.) are...oppositional. When the attitudes are different, the functions are not oppositional, but complementary...

  2. #32
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofmarhof View Post
    This might drive you crazy but I can't resist saying that all I have to do is rearrange your clauses and I have great fuel for function wars. Like this:

    Ti without Te: Assessing everything in terms of logical coherence and first-hand understanding, without ever considering its objective, quantifiable reliability.

    Ti without Fi: Assessing everything in terms of logical coherence and first-hand understanding, without ever considering its effect on emotional needs.

    So, more seriously, what makes Ti without Fe intrinsically worse than Ti without Te, or Ti without Fi?
    Theoretically, nothing. But like I said - this is a system born from observation and anecdote, seeking to describe an ongoing process. They're meant to illustrate the conflicting perspectives that people naturally hold.

    Ji and Je are opposed because they appeal to different authorities - one to the individual, the other to the community. The tug of war between these two philosophies is pretty self-evident and well documented.

    Giving another crude stab at it:

    • Fe balances Ti - Ti appeals to the individual and the impersonal choices they are able to make or identify. Fe appeals to the community and what others would think or do.
    • Fi balances Te - Te appeals to the community and what can be impersonally, objectively and reliably quantified. Fi appeals to the individual and identifies emotional needs that are impossible to objectively quantify.
    Hello

  3. #33
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    The whole concept of function preference is based on acceptance vs. rejection. What the ego accepts as a source of stimulation becomes apart of the consciousness, and what it rejects or suppresses remains unconscious. There are really only four functions, which an ego receives stimulation through in an inner or outer orientation, rejecting the unchosen orientation into the unconscious.

    The entire key to this whole thing is that when you choose one function, the other is rejected (or suppressed), and when you choose one orientation to receive use a function in, the other orientation is rejected or suppressed for its use as well.
    T and F are just two sides of the "rational" coin, and S and N are two sides of the "a-rational" coin. And then if these function coins are split along the edge into separate coins in themselves, the different orientations of them are just different sides of those coins.

    So if the ego chooses an internal orientation, and Thinking as its dominant function, then the outer orientation in general will be rejected, and Feeling will also be rejected, and end up associated with that rejected outer orientation. The auxiliary will be a perception function, and will soon also be accepted, but also placed in that outer orientation. The form of perception not chosen for the auxiliary will become tertiary and would also be rejected into the outer orientation, yet a Puer complex that associates with it will orient it to the dominant attitude.
    The four "processes" that result will become "ego-syntonic". The "other four processes" or reverse function orientations will be "ego-dystonic", and remain in the unconcious. Hence, Ti will work with Fe more than with Te or Fi. Te is the external logical consideration rejected from the dominant inner world, and Fi is the valuation rejected from the inner world in favor of logic in the first place. So Te will either oppose, or sometimes back up Ti, and Fi will usually conflict with Ti as well, but can fill in for it when Ti is unable to solve the problem, which is usually under a lot of stress.
    in what way is an INTP like an INFJ, and are they usually similar in these ways? How is an INTJ like an INFP and vice versa?
    They are similar, in that when they do use judgment functions, they will tend to be the same kind. The difference will be that one will prefer Thinking over Feeling, and the other, Feeling over Thinking. Whichever is preferred will tend to be more mature and confident, and what's not preferred will tend to be less confident, and they will tend to look up to the other person who prefers it, for their judgment. But it will be the same kind of judgment, in the same orientation.

    I had tried to classify the types according to tandem preference here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...dem-names.html
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  4. #34
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    hah funny i was just thinking about the words egosyntonic and egodystonic, before i opened this thread. according to my understanding its problematic to use them in this context, as syntonic does not mean "integrated" but it rather means that one is so fully identified with his ways that one cant step back to objectify his ways. hence he can not perceive "internal" conflicts because there is not yet any ego structure that could achieve conscious differentiation between one kind of me (my personality, me and my self) and another part of me (my dissociated sub-personality), so there can only be conflicts that are considered to external conflicts with the world. this is true in children and sociopaths and in psychotic temporary regression. it's a matter of lack of stages (developmental structures) or break down. correct me, if the word syntonic is also applied to people who are mostly integrated and who have enough transcended structure (stages) to objectify most of their behavior, own it, as opposed to "be" it. since no one is fully integrated and any grown up who has a healty amount of structure is aware of the influence of dissociated independent subpersonalites, everyone with such structure must be egodystonic. can he by dystonic at the same time? if so, the words have only meaning if expressed in relation to a specific issue ...

  5. #35
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I don't get this at all, and it sounds a bit like a Ti/Fe conceit on your part.

    Perhaps Ti/Fe and Te/Fi correspond to different ways of arriving at a concept of "what is" and "what should be"?

    More to the point, F(e/i) is values, a concept of "should." T(e/i) is more objective w/r to "what is" rather than "what should".

    I would suspect that Ti/Fe internalizes "what is" and externalizes "what should", while Fi/Te does the opposite.

    Personally, I find that sharing Ni means a lot more when discussing "is" and "should" becomes an issue. INFJs get me as quickly as INTJs, which suggests that the Ti/Fe vs Te/Fi split is not as you suggest.
    Shoulda set a timer as to how long it would be before a Te-Fi'er came to dispute this.

    Te imposes its will upon the world. Why does it do this? It stems from subjective valuation, i.e. what it thinks "should be". The determination of "what should be" does indeed filter through the dominant perceiving function, but it still ultimately sources from the TeFi axis.

    Fe desires the maintenance of social stability. Why does it do this? It stems from objective determination, that is, the "what is" of the social structure as it exists. This, too, filters through the dominant perceiving function, but as above, sources from the FeTi axis.

  6. #36
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    I don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but one of Jung's basic principles was the idea of enantiodromia, according to which a thing will resolve into its opposite if intensified past a certain point. Since I don't think that Jung literally believed the hottest hot would become a cold, I think that what he had in mind was that an oven can be turned higher and higher but this heat will never be an absolute; there will always be some coldness about it, and at any moment this coldness can overcome it.

    The psychological equivalent of this latent coldness would be the tendencies you repress in favor of those you adopt. Take someone who is extremely logical, for instance. We would call this person a Ti user, and if we consider them to be actively repressing Fe, then the two processes would enjoy a relationship like the one between hotness and coldness: they would intermix, undermine, emphasize, and fluctuate between each other. Following this same illustration, if that person were a "typical INTP," by calling them such, what we've claimed is that their whole set of preferences combined with their repressed preferences--their ego, in other words--is finally opposed to a set of preferences of which they're not even conscious (Te, Ni, Se, Fi). Many of us will call this their "subconscious," although in truth all we've done is created an opposition between our perception of them and a thing that stands beyond them as their "shadow."
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  7. #37
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Shoulda set a timer as to how long it would be before a Te-Fi'er came to dispute this.

    Te imposes its will upon the world. Why does it do this? It stems from subjective valuation, i.e. what it thinks "should be". The determination of "what should be" does indeed filter through the dominant perceiving function, but it still ultimately sources from the TeFi axis.

    Fe desires the maintenance of social stability. Why does it do this? It stems from objective determination, that is, the "what is" of the social structure as it exists. This, too, filters through the dominant perceiving function, but as above, sources from the FeTi axis.
    I believe Jung classified Ti and Fi and subjective, and Te and Fe as objective.

    For example, Psychological Types, p. 383, "Just as we might take Darwin as an example of the normal extraverted thinking type, the normal introverted thinking type could be represented by Kant. The one speaks with facts, the other relies on the subjective factor. Darwin ranges over the wide field of objective reality. Kant restricts himself to a critique of knowledge."

    Both Te and Fe tend to invest in what's effective empirically. Ti and Fi tend to invest in what is right subjectively.

  8. #38
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I believe Jung classified Ti and Fi and subjective, and Te and Fe as objective.

    For example, Psychological Types, p. 383, "Just as we might take Darwin as an example of the normal extraverted thinking type, the normal introverted thinking type could be represented by Kant. The one speaks with facts, the other relies on the subjective factor. Darwin ranges over the wide field of objective reality. Kant restricts himself to a critique of knowledge."

    Both Te and Fe tend to invest in what's effective. Ti and Fi tend to invest in what is right (in some sense).
    I disagree. To me, it's whether the judging interest stems from the subject or the object. Ti (information) and Fe (social structure) both gather its interest from the object - Ti cannot do a thing without external information to reconcile, and Fe doesn't function without a social superstructure. Te (organization) and Fi (values) both gather its interest from the subject - Te depends on the personal sense of "correctness" to function externally, and Fi's determinations stem solely from the subject.

    Ti may only need a bit of external information to "prime the pump", but it needs that information nonetheless. Te may only need the slightest internal sense to function, but it needs that sense of order nonetheless.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Fe imposes its will upon the world. Why does it do this? It stems from subjective valuation, i.e. what it thinks "should be". The determination of "what should be" does indeed filter through the dominant perceiving function, but it still ultimately sources from the FeTi axis.
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #40
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I disagree. To me, it's whether the judging interest stems from the subject or the object. Ti (information) and Fe (social structure) both gather its interest from the object - Ti cannot do a thing without external information to reconcile, and Fe doesn't function without a social superstructure. Te (organization) and Fi (values) both gather its interest from the subject - Te depends on the personal sense of "correctness" to function externally, and Fi's determinations stem solely from the subject.

    Ti may only need a bit of external information to "prime the pump", but it needs that information nonetheless. Te may only need the slightest internal sense to function, but it needs that sense of order nonetheless.
    I think you are redefining what Jung meant by the extraverted and introverted attitudes when describing the functions. The reason extraverted thinking is extraverted is because it uses the extraverted attitude, which is oriented around the object. The introverted attitude is oriented by the subject. Ti is logical, but tends to be more disconnected from the surrounding culture and systems than Te is.

    All judging functions need perceptions in order to prime the pump, so I don't think that's a unique quality of Fe and Ti. Ti is a logically based rational process, so is more amenable to external correction and analysis than Fi is.

    In general, I haven't found the Ti/Fe and Te/Fi axes to be emphasized nearly as much in typological literature as they are on these forums. I'm wondering if that's partially because of the periodical conflicts between xNTPs (usually ENTPs) and xNFPs (usually INFPs) that flare up here.

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