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  1. #1
    Member Sidewinder's Avatar
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    Default Moving away from an SJ-based society

    Traditionally, SJs have been in positions of authority in society, and many aspects of society reflect that. But do think this is changing?

    Today, cultural and social conventions seem more SP or NT/NF driven, from the rise of the Internet, to the change in popular styles (everything from furniture to clothes). It's not as necessary to dress up, even at work or when dining out, and institutions like formal fine dining are very unhip.

    How do you see this continuing to evolve? What steps do you think SJs might take to keep traditions alive? Or is that a lost cause? Could it be that contemporary styles and traditions will become the new conventions, and hence appealing to SJs?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Looking at the younger population of today will give you an indicator of what's probably set up for the future. From my perspective it seems to be split two ways...

    One is the thing that you have mentioned. The other is the more competitive/global market/organised risk management structure that is developing with it all.

  3. #3
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    I think you have a point, and I think one way you can tell that this is happening is that young SJs act very, very differently from older SJs, to the point that those from an older generation can hardly tell who's an SJ anymore, unless they're openly against societal change in some way.

    And yes, I think that new things are becoming conventional, because that's how it's always been, you know? The new becomes old.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member sofmarhof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I think you have a point, and I think one way you can tell that this is happening is that young SJs act very, very differently from older SJs, to the point that those from an older generation can hardly tell who's an SJ anymore, unless they're openly against societal change in some way.
    Yes, I think it's a mistake to think that all SJs are traditional, I've been thinking that there needs to be a thread on non-traditional SJs, just so everyone realizes that they exist.

    I have a friend who's a very nontraditional ISTJ. She didn't have a happy childhood, and I think basically around 13-14 she figured out that the values her parents were handing down to her weren't right, so she replaced them with another set of values which she will never waver from. She is now very set in her ways, having the beliefs of a liberal but the tenacity in believing them of an ultra-conservative.

  5. #5
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Looking at the younger population of today will give you an indicator of what's probably set up for the future...
    God help us all.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  6. #6
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofmarhof View Post
    Yes, I think it's a mistake to think that all SJs are traditional, I've been thinking that there needs to be a thread on non-traditional SJs, just so everyone realizes that they exist.

    I have a friend who's a very nontraditional ISTJ. She didn't have a happy childhood, and I think basically around 13-14 she figured out that the values her parents were handing down to her weren't right, so she replaced them with another set of values which she will never waver from. She is now very set in her ways, having the beliefs of a liberal but the tenacity in believing them of an ultra-conservative.
    I agree with this. I did something similar to your friend, breaking away from my parents' values and figuring out what my own values are. The way I live now actually puts me very much in a minority.

    I think people misunderstand the so-called SJ love for tradition. You can love anything irrationally, an INFP could love their individualism irrationally, the result would be just as bad as a dogmatic SJ. I don't love tradition per se at all, in fact, I see most tradition as old habits passed down through generations that mix some good things with some bad, resulting in what we call "culture". And there are many different cultures. So often, we don't even realise that a lot of our thinking and beliefs are just cultural-based rather than real choices we have made.

    The guardianship issue as I see it is just comes down to the fact that there are some things worth upholding. There are universal, and thus old, "traditional" things that deserve respect and preservation. An unaware SJ driven by such values could dogmatically uphold something that doesn't deserve it or be unwilling to be open to change. A "non-traditional" SJ is just upholding and defending what they personally consider to be worth it.
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  7. #7
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofmarhof View Post
    Yes, I think it's a mistake to think that all SJs are traditional, I've been thinking that there needs to be a thread on non-traditional SJs, just so everyone realizes that they exist.

    I have a friend who's a very nontraditional ISTJ. She didn't have a happy childhood, and I think basically around 13-14 she figured out that the values her parents were handing down to her weren't right, so she replaced them with another set of values which she will never waver from. She is now very set in her ways, having the beliefs of a liberal but the tenacity in believing them of an ultra-conservative.
    Great Idea...Look for the thread.

  8. #8
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    SJs of old were more likely to uphold the traditions at that time.

    The reason why SJs are more likely to be leaders is because they are consistent and thorough, and are usually able to stay focused on accomplishing the task at hand, not because they stick to tradition.

    I am not traditional. My ISTJ boss is....he feels that because he's the boss, he pretty much passes all the work to his underlings, and the only time he cares is when it's time for us to appear in front of his peers or higher-ups in the organization. Everyone's aware of this, and nobody respects him for it. He's white and blue shirts all week, with an occassional print here and there on Fridays. So he's a bore. We laugh at him.

    Sometimes I look at him and wonder if I'll end up like that someday. IMPOSSIBLE

  9. #9
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewinder View Post
    Traditionally, SJs have been in positions of authority in society, and many aspects of society reflect that. But do think this is changing?
    Most of authority roles in our society are duty-bound (military, police, governmental bureau workers, teachers), and thus very fitting for SJ minded persons. They usually have little power to change the aspect their duties, but they are devoted to carry out their duties as requested. They are not the real authority, but an extension of an authority exercised from somewhere far above. And those few persons calling shots for all these people most likely are not SJs... or at least SJs aren't too common there.

    SJs have a strong urge to build and maintain structure of society, and hence they will always be part of the society's authority chain. So whatever the structure will be, SJs will always find their way there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewinder View Post
    Today, cultural and social conventions seem more SP or NT/NF driven, from the rise of the Internet, to the change in popular styles (everything from furniture to clothes).
    Seem? Says who? How do support this claim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewinder View Post
    It's not as necessary to dress up, even at work or when dining out, and institutions like formal fine dining are very unhip.
    I hate dressing up. My NT brother loves dressing up to his finest suit. I hate institutional rules and guidelines. SJs are more willing to follow the code of the give situation, rather than forcing their own beliefs in it. NFs do that. We merely follow the code of conduct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewinder View Post
    How do you see this continuing to evolve? What steps do you think SJs might take to keep traditions alive? Or is that a lost cause? Could it be that contemporary styles and traditions will become the new conventions, and hence appealing to SJs?
    SJs will probably always retain their dislike for changes, while NFs will probably drive on changing chaos. It's an everlasting battle which makes our society to go through small changes all the time.
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
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  10. #10
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofmarhof View Post
    Yes, I think it's a mistake to think that all SJs are traditional, I've been thinking that there needs to be a thread on non-traditional SJs, just so everyone realizes that they exist.

    I have a friend who's a very nontraditional ISTJ. She didn't have a happy childhood, and I think basically around 13-14 she figured out that the values her parents were handing down to her weren't right, so she replaced them with another set of values which she will never waver from. She is now very set in her ways, having the beliefs of a liberal but the tenacity in believing them of an ultra-conservative.
    My parents were a case in point with that, and they're old.
    It's because of the fact that they rely on concrete structures, that they will rebel, if those structures are really screwed up. And with my parents, and much of their generation, they really were. The family was practically insane. Society was in total upheaval, with the old orde clinging on to racism, neurotic sexual repression, and then claimig to be "Christian" on top of it. (All the hypocrisy, everywhere). So they had no reasonable structure to hold on to, and they rebelled. (And ISTJ's have tertiary Fi, guiding this as well). Hence, I believe that the SJ actually corresponds to FIRO' "Rebel", even though it sounds ironic or contradictory. (FIRO is a bit slanted towards the negative side of personality, which MBTI and Keirsey tend to downplay).
    Before my time, they (my father particularly) were almost like beatniks or hippies (they were between those generations). When they had me, and settled down to family life in the 70's and 80's, then their true "Guardian" nature came out.

    A close friend of ours (our age) is a modern version of the same thing, and even has the messiest house we know of (which seems to be some sort of subconscious rebellion against her crazy upbringing).
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