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Moving away from an SJ-based society

Sidewinder

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Traditionally, SJs have been in positions of authority in society, and many aspects of society reflect that. But do think this is changing?

Today, cultural and social conventions seem more SP or NT/NF driven, from the rise of the Internet, to the change in popular styles (everything from furniture to clothes). It's not as necessary to dress up, even at work or when dining out, and institutions like formal fine dining are very unhip.

How do you see this continuing to evolve? What steps do you think SJs might take to keep traditions alive? Or is that a lost cause? Could it be that contemporary styles and traditions will become the new conventions, and hence appealing to SJs?
 

Snow Turtle

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Looking at the younger population of today will give you an indicator of what's probably set up for the future. From my perspective it seems to be split two ways...

One is the thing that you have mentioned. The other is the more competitive/global market/organised risk management structure that is developing with it all.
 

EJCC

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I think you have a point, and I think one way you can tell that this is happening is that young SJs act very, very differently from older SJs, to the point that those from an older generation can hardly tell who's an SJ anymore, unless they're openly against societal change in some way.

And yes, I think that new things are becoming conventional, because that's how it's always been, you know? The new becomes old.
 

sofmarhof

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I think you have a point, and I think one way you can tell that this is happening is that young SJs act very, very differently from older SJs, to the point that those from an older generation can hardly tell who's an SJ anymore, unless they're openly against societal change in some way.

Yes, I think it's a mistake to think that all SJs are traditional, I've been thinking that there needs to be a thread on non-traditional SJs, just so everyone realizes that they exist.

I have a friend who's a very nontraditional ISTJ. She didn't have a happy childhood, and I think basically around 13-14 she figured out that the values her parents were handing down to her weren't right, so she replaced them with another set of values which she will never waver from. She is now very set in her ways, having the beliefs of a liberal but the tenacity in believing them of an ultra-conservative.
 

Gerbah

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Yes, I think it's a mistake to think that all SJs are traditional, I've been thinking that there needs to be a thread on non-traditional SJs, just so everyone realizes that they exist.

I have a friend who's a very nontraditional ISTJ. She didn't have a happy childhood, and I think basically around 13-14 she figured out that the values her parents were handing down to her weren't right, so she replaced them with another set of values which she will never waver from. She is now very set in her ways, having the beliefs of a liberal but the tenacity in believing them of an ultra-conservative.

I agree with this. I did something similar to your friend, breaking away from my parents' values and figuring out what my own values are. The way I live now actually puts me very much in a minority.

I think people misunderstand the so-called SJ love for tradition. You can love anything irrationally, an INFP could love their individualism irrationally, the result would be just as bad as a dogmatic SJ. I don't love tradition per se at all, in fact, I see most tradition as old habits passed down through generations that mix some good things with some bad, resulting in what we call "culture". And there are many different cultures. So often, we don't even realise that a lot of our thinking and beliefs are just cultural-based rather than real choices we have made.

The guardianship issue as I see it is just comes down to the fact that there are some things worth upholding. There are universal, and thus old, "traditional" things that deserve respect and preservation. An unaware SJ driven by such values could dogmatically uphold something that doesn't deserve it or be unwilling to be open to change. A "non-traditional" SJ is just upholding and defending what they personally consider to be worth it.
 

IZthe411

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Yes, I think it's a mistake to think that all SJs are traditional, I've been thinking that there needs to be a thread on non-traditional SJs, just so everyone realizes that they exist.

I have a friend who's a very nontraditional ISTJ. She didn't have a happy childhood, and I think basically around 13-14 she figured out that the values her parents were handing down to her weren't right, so she replaced them with another set of values which she will never waver from. She is now very set in her ways, having the beliefs of a liberal but the tenacity in believing them of an ultra-conservative.

Great Idea...Look for the thread.
 

IZthe411

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SJs of old were more likely to uphold the traditions at that time.

The reason why SJs are more likely to be leaders is because they are consistent and thorough, and are usually able to stay focused on accomplishing the task at hand, not because they stick to tradition.

I am not traditional. My ISTJ boss is....he feels that because he's the boss, he pretty much passes all the work to his underlings, and the only time he cares is when it's time for us to appear in front of his peers or higher-ups in the organization. Everyone's aware of this, and nobody respects him for it. He's white and blue shirts all week, with an occassional print here and there on Fridays. So he's a bore. We laugh at him.

Sometimes I look at him and wonder if I'll end up like that someday. IMPOSSIBLE
 

Habba

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Traditionally, SJs have been in positions of authority in society, and many aspects of society reflect that. But do think this is changing?

Most of authority roles in our society are duty-bound (military, police, governmental bureau workers, teachers), and thus very fitting for SJ minded persons. They usually have little power to change the aspect their duties, but they are devoted to carry out their duties as requested. They are not the real authority, but an extension of an authority exercised from somewhere far above. And those few persons calling shots for all these people most likely are not SJs... or at least SJs aren't too common there.

SJs have a strong urge to build and maintain structure of society, and hence they will always be part of the society's authority chain. So whatever the structure will be, SJs will always find their way there.

Today, cultural and social conventions seem more SP or NT/NF driven, from the rise of the Internet, to the change in popular styles (everything from furniture to clothes).

Seem? Says who? How do support this claim?

It's not as necessary to dress up, even at work or when dining out, and institutions like formal fine dining are very unhip.

I hate dressing up. My NT brother loves dressing up to his finest suit. I hate institutional rules and guidelines. SJs are more willing to follow the code of the give situation, rather than forcing their own beliefs in it. NFs do that. We merely follow the code of conduct.

How do you see this continuing to evolve? What steps do you think SJs might take to keep traditions alive? Or is that a lost cause? Could it be that contemporary styles and traditions will become the new conventions, and hence appealing to SJs?

SJs will probably always retain their dislike for changes, while NFs will probably drive on changing chaos. It's an everlasting battle which makes our society to go through small changes all the time.
 

Eric B

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Yes, I think it's a mistake to think that all SJs are traditional, I've been thinking that there needs to be a thread on non-traditional SJs, just so everyone realizes that they exist.

I have a friend who's a very nontraditional ISTJ. She didn't have a happy childhood, and I think basically around 13-14 she figured out that the values her parents were handing down to her weren't right, so she replaced them with another set of values which she will never waver from. She is now very set in her ways, having the beliefs of a liberal but the tenacity in believing them of an ultra-conservative.
My parents were a case in point with that, and they're old.
It's because of the fact that they rely on concrete structures, that they will rebel, if those structures are really screwed up. And with my parents, and much of their generation, they really were. The family was practically insane. Society was in total upheaval, with the old orde clinging on to racism, neurotic sexual repression, and then claimig to be "Christian" on top of it. (All the hypocrisy, everywhere). So they had no reasonable structure to hold on to, and they rebelled. (And ISTJ's have tertiary Fi, guiding this as well). Hence, I believe that the SJ actually corresponds to FIRO' "Rebel", even though it sounds ironic or contradictory. (FIRO is a bit slanted towards the negative side of personality, which MBTI and Keirsey tend to downplay).
Before my time, they (my father particularly) were almost like beatniks or hippies (they were between those generations). When they had me, and settled down to family life in the 70's and 80's, then their true "Guardian" nature came out.

A close friend of ours (our age) is a modern version of the same thing, and even has the messiest house we know of (which seems to be some sort of subconscious rebellion against her crazy upbringing).
 

Sidewinder

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I think you have a point, and I think one way you can tell that this is happening is that young SJs act very, very differently from older SJs, to the point that those from an older generation can hardly tell who's an SJ anymore, unless they're openly against societal change in some way.

I also feel that it's the older SJs, who in many cases were quite conservative, who have been hit particularly hard by globalization, technology. corporate downsizing etc. Younger SJs are more used to rapid change, and they are pragmatic enough to go with what they think is going to work. As maintaining traditions has become less useful, they've dropped traditions that don't personally believe in.

Yes, I think it's a mistake to think that all SJs are traditional, I've been thinking that there needs to be a thread on non-traditional SJs, just so everyone realizes that they exist.

I have a friend who's a very nontraditional ISTJ. She didn't have a happy childhood, and I think basically around 13-14 she figured out that the values her parents were handing down to her weren't right, so she replaced them with another set of values which she will never waver from. She is now very set in her ways, having the beliefs of a liberal but the tenacity in believing them of an ultra-conservative.

Good point here! SJs like stability and structure, but they are not necessarily traditional or conservative (although traditions are inherently stable and structured and so are more attractive to SJs on average). I know a ESTJ who is a very hard-core vegan, because he's very health-conscious. It's what he believes in, so he's brought in a disciplined structured approach to his lifestyle that even involves preparing special foods for travel, contacting conventions in advance about his dietary preferences, etc.

Regarding SJ Liberals, they may be more likely to be very "traditional" liberals, and very much in lockstep with Democratic policy. SPs and NTs are more often independent, or at odds with their party for one reason or another.

Seem? Says who? How do support this claim?

I hate dressing up. My NT brother loves dressing up to his finest suit. I hate institutional rules and guidelines. SJs are more willing to follow the code of the give situation, rather than forcing their own beliefs in it. NFs do that. We merely follow the code of conduct.

Sez me. :D It's my post and my opinions. What'd'ya expect from a SFP ... a list of indexed citations. :dry:

My evidence would be that our society prizes individuality, pragmatic realism, adaptability and ability to cope with change much more than it used to be. These are typically not SJ strengths. Hierarchies are flatter than they used to be, and we're results-driven rather than process-driven (excepting some big institutions like government). Big corporations, which are dominated by SJ hierarchies have had massive downsizing. They have laid off middle management and hired more consultants and tech staff (more likely STP or NT from my experience).

In contrast, we're seeing more opportunities in areas like higher education, technology/science, and design. Higher education was once reserved for the wealthy, so was good design, whether that's fashion, interior design, whatever. Now everyone wants this. All this has meant a better crack at life for NT, NF, and SP types. Since marketing and trends often follow those with the cash, we're not catering as much to SJs now.

I bring up the formal fine dining example, because although it's trivial to us, it was a very important ritual for older SJs. They dressed up to exacting standards, and entered a world in which status and money were very important, and were treated to a very exacting and predictable standard of formal and mannered service. Nowadays, you can go to an expensive restaurant with top-notch food but the atmosphere and service are casual. The waiter treats you like a drinking buddy and they've probably playing Cat Power or electronica. I'm a bit of a foodie, and I like this trend, but then I'm SP. :cool: But my SJ father consistently voices his disapproval and dismay about this.

Another example ... A clean, spotless house used to be very important for proper standing and to reflect the right values, especially when entertaining. My SJ aunt vacuumed her entire house every day! But standards of housekeeping have declined as both parents are often working, people don't have formal dinner parties, and people just don't care. Again, stuff like this has hit older SJs hard.

My parents were a case in point with that, and they're old.
It's because of the fact that they rely on concrete structures, that they will rebel, if those structures are really screwed up. And with my parents, and much of their generation, they really were. The family was practically insane. Society was in total upheaval, with the old orde clinging on to racism, neurotic sexual repression, and then claimig to be "Christian" on top of it. (All the hypocrisy, everywhere). So they had no reasonable structure to hold on to, and they rebelled. (And ISTJ's have tertiary Fi, guiding this as well). Hence, I believe that the SJ actually corresponds to FIRO' "Rebel", even though it sounds ironic or contradictory. (FIRO is a bit slanted towards the negative side of personality, which MBTI and Keirsey tend to downplay).
Before my time, they (my father particularly) were almost like beatniks or hippies (they were between those generations). When they had me, and settled down to family life in the 70's and 80's, then their true "Guardian" nature came out.

A close friend of ours (our age) is a modern version of the same thing, and even has the messiest house we know of (which seems to be some sort of subconscious rebellion against her crazy upbringing).

Not sure I understand this. I haven't really seen the SJs I know as Rebels of any type. They do have good common sense and will often quietly drop traditions they don't believe in or are wrong (in a non-confrontational way). But they often quietly retreat back to those traditions as they get older or after they have children.
 

Eric B

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Well, that is basically what happened.
By "rebel", I meant that they turn from the structures that with the values that aren't right. In that case, the values were totally off kilter.
 

Lark

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I think these trends have less to do with type and more to do with social stratification, for instance styles of dress have been effected by homogenisation and mass markets but some among the more privileged sections of society seek to preserve the distinctiveness of their rank or status through conspicious consumption anyhow but it just doesnt look the same.
 
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