User Tag List

Results 1 to 5 of 5

  1. #1
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    2,128

    Default Normative or Descriptive: Differentiated vs Undifferentiated

    Quote Originally Posted by Two Point Two View Post

    1. That said, there may be some truth in it - for example, if someone thinks they're INFP but that they use a lot of Ni, and someone else tells them that they aren't using Ni because they're an INFP, or that it's unhealthy for them to do so and they should work on changing it, then I'd say that's a normative and inappropriate application of the system. But that's not a flaw in the system, it's a flaw in someone's use of it.

    I actually interestingly enough think that there are some normative properties to MBTI. In short, even the MBTI practitioner who used to post here said it once (he/shes INFJ i think). Un-differentiation is not the goal of MBTI. People who are undifferentiated (XXXX) are not "healthier" according MBTI.

    I think we can deduce two possibilities from this assumption:
    I. XXXX and more differentiated are irrelevant to healthiness
    II. XXXX is MBTI's version of borderline personality disorder

    I want to discuss the merits of perhaps inductively accepting one over the other (we cant really deduce that one is better than the other).

    If we accept II, The system then takes on the normative idea that say: ENFJs can use Ti as much as they want, as long as they remain differentiated with Fe and Ni differentiating their main personality.

    2. With myself, I have noticed positive benefits to focusing ONLY on my top three world view processes (in an effort to differentiate myself more). Rather than make myself more unhealthy, it actually rather feels like I'm relaxing into a comfort zone (like im repairing myself). If someone instead tried to convince me to seek total balance XXXX, I might never have realized this comfort zone of differentiation!

    I think this all makes more sense to me because I view the functions as "world view processes" rather than "skills":

    Extraverted Feeling (Fe) makes sense of the world by viewing it in terms of where you stand with other people: interpreting signs that indicate the category of your relationship. As an epistemological perspective, Fe leads you to view every sign as an expression of people's loyalties. A simple example is that displaying a flag demonstrates your loyalty to country. What matters is how you go above and beyond efficient means to an end. For example, throwing a party in someone's honor is not "necessary" for survival: it's a gesture that goes above and beyond survival, expressing your feelings for the guest of honor in a way that all can understand. From an Fe perspective, words are never neutral descriptions of fact: your choice of words, your choice of topic, is a declaration of your feelings and loyalties. As an ethical perspective, Fe leads you to believe that "life is with people": to understand one's value and meaning in terms of your standing in the community--in terms of the people whom you influence and their feelings about you.
    I like to sum this up as the loyalties world view: everything you do is a show of your loyalties and disloyalties. Something like not making it a point to find bob at the party might mean nothing to other world views, but in a Fe world view, its "a slight".


    Introverted Intuition (Ni) focuses on what is inexpressible--the incommensurable and chaotic things that exist outside of any conceptual framework. For example, what do you hear in the theme-and-variations movement of Beethoven's String Quartet Op. 131? There is a meaning there, but you can't put it into words. Any attempt to put it into words will result in only a tawdry parody of the reality. Better to remain silent. As an epistemological perspective, Ni leads you to view all signs as meaningless or even deceptive, not necessarily connected to what they're supposed to represent. The true reality is something that exists beyond all signs and appearances, and can only be apprehended by a kind of direct intuition. To learn truth, one must learn to see through appearances--to make contact with a reality that cannot be seen or said. As an ethical perspective, Ni leads you to hold yourself apart from and unaffected by the meanings that others attach to words and events--to keep your own vision pure and pursue your own path regardless of evidence, reasons, or the opinions of others.
    I like to sum this up as the "silver lining" world view. Behind all the immediate perceptions, whats really going on? Can I still be friends with this person even though their immediate symbols indicate no? According to my Ni, yes I can . Theres more to them then meets the eye.

    Extraverted Sensation (Se) makes sense of the world by attending to what exists concretely here and now, and trusting your instincts. As an epistemological perspective, Se leads you to believe only in what you can see and experience concretely, and to trust your immediate, gut-level responses to it. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, then it's a duck. Whatever a sign means is obvious and inescapable; if a sign's meaning is not obvious, then it's meaningless. Whatever is physical, immediate, gut-level cannot be faked and must be right. For example, if you sense that someone is up to no good, then you trust that sense. If you have an impulse to paint the town red, then you go out and do so. As an ethical perspective, Se leads you to believe that life is to be lived right now, "in the moment", responding to things immediately and without thought. What matters most in life is what makes the biggest perceivable impact, whatever stands out in a way that can't be ignored. Se leads you to develop a persona that is attractive and "hip" according to the conventions of your society and your time--to go with the flow without stopping to question the direction. If something isn't fun, then don't do it.
    I like to sum this one up as "immediate action". Sometimes, seeing the silver lining and placing my loyalties just isnt working. Thats when embracing the immediate and seeing what needs to be seen right NOW is very helpful.

    Beyond those three ^^^, it would be VERY hard to incorporate at all times, all 8 world views! This is perhaps why I think 3 is a natural "end point". Being undifferentiated would seem overwhelming, stressful and "lost".

    Also, a Ti person trying to more differentiate themselves from being overly XXXX would NOT just sit around doing math problems all day . Ti is a world view process, not a specific skill.

    So do you think being more differentiated has more merit than being undifferentiated?


    3. Lenore Thompson has similar ideas to differentiation, but she instead recommends avoiding all but the top 2 (tertiary/inferior temptations). I think this is unnecessarily restricting. I think the tertiary is a positive and "mobilizing" influence.

    Is there a correct number to differentiate to? Should we ignore certain functions on purpose? (remember, functions arent skills, but world view processes).

    4. ENNEAGRAM and MBTI
    Perhaps the "he's unbalanced" retort comes from recognizing "classic ennea/MBTI" pairs that over emphasize the MBTI type when in an unhealthy state of enneagram: ENTJ in an unhealthy enneagram 8 might give people the idea that being undifferentiated is more unhealthy?

  2. #2
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    7
    Posts
    752

    Default

    Okay...

    Going back to the very beginning, type theory says we have a preferred way of perceiving (through S or N) and Judging (through T or F) and we're more oriented toward the external world (Extraversion, gaining energy through action and interaction) or the internal world (Introversion, gaining energy through reflection). The fourth letter in the code developed by Myers and Briggs points to which function we use in the external world...

    In the theory, type development involves good use of both one's perceiving and judging function--mature people gather enough information, through S or N (whichever they prefer) so that they don't rush to conclusions, and then have a developed way (through T or F) of acting on that information--they can make up their minds. Think about it...immature people fall into two categories: the Maynard G Kreb's who make no decisions [pop reference out of The Dobie Gillis Show]--no way to come to judgments; and the Frank Burns's who are completely closed to anyone else's opinions--no adequate way to perceive.

    And, one of these operates in the external world and one in the internal world, giving us balance between solo and social aspects of life.

    There's quite a bit of evidence that the work of life through young adulthood--school, first career, relationships--depends on developing these first two functions and "honoring" them.

    But...life satisfaction remains elusive if one is only tree-oriented (S) or forest-oriented (N), and likewise if one is only objective (T) or subjective (F). Unless, that is, one is satisfied with being anal, scatterbrained, cold or codependent. Most people, then, choose to develop skills with the other functions in order to live a fuller life, have more fun, get along better with others, make better choices, etc. You don't adopt other world views.

    If you're working with someone who uses one of the normed type instruments (MBTI, Golden, Majors, etc.) they'll tell you xxxx is a bad idea because only when we understand what we prefer are we aware of the preferences/functions over which we have less conscious control. Then we can develop strategies for using the less preferred. When we have to. We guess.

    It CAN take a lot of self-reflection to determine which one is actually preferred. Someone who excels at helping others find best-fit type probes situational use to get at which is learned vs. preferred; common sources of critique or trouble; childhood patterns; parental pressures, etc. I find that when people can't make up their minds, they're either a couple of the types who are simply too determined to be unique to think that any pattern might describe them; victims of abuse or in the midst of some crisis who have therefore masked preferences; or are totally unaware of the benefits and consequences of how they perceive and judge.

    I don't know if this exactly gets at your post. Big ideas: everyone had better get the first two down pat; the third and fourth add a lot of fun and sanity to the years past 29, and Se is turning out to be a great preference to work on. Hope the snow's good for XC skiing this weekend!
    edcoaching

  3. #3
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,441

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    3. Lenore Thompson has similar ideas to differentiation, but she instead recommends avoiding all but the top 2 (tertiary/inferior temptations). I think this is unnecessarily restricting. I think the tertiary is a positive and "mobilizing" influence.
    She actualy suggests that Jung held differentiated functions to be "wounds on the psyche". For whenever a function is chosen, others are rejected into the unconsciousness, and we were not really designed in nature to differentiate functions.
    Temperament Theory & Carl Jung Types | Lenore Thomson Bentz
    So instead of the goal being "developing" as many functions as possible, the goal is said to be "individuation" (which has been misunderstood in terms of "developing all the functions").
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  4. #4
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    2,128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Think about it...immature people fall into two categories: the Maynard G Kreb's who make no decisions [pop reference out of The Dobie Gillis Show]--no way to come to judgments; and the Frank Burns's who are completely closed to anyone else's opinions--no adequate way to perceive.

    There's quite a bit of evidence that the work of life through young adulthood--school, first career, relationships--depends on developing these first two functions and "honoring" them.
    I think this thread will be most productive if we interpret my first post as regarding the "honoring" aspect. In retrospect, I have done a poor job at honoring my preferred ways of interacting for some portions of my life. Its easy to intellectually chalk it up to stress, overexertion, lack of sleep and frustration with school...but its hard to just 'rationalize it away'.

    If you're working with someone who uses one of the normed type instruments (MBTI, Golden, Majors, etc.) they'll tell you xxxx is a bad idea because only when we understand what we prefer are we aware of the preferences/functions over which we have less conscious control. Then we can develop strategies for using the less preferred. When we have to. We guess.
    See this is what I wish someone could have done for me when I was younger. I simply was unaware of how to function under certain environments! I never knew WHY. It took me until I was 20 years old to fully understand that math and deductive logic work with principles of "what follows with absolute necessity?" (issues with Ti?). It took me until I was 20 something to learn that physical image will not solve all my problems (issues with Se?). It took me until I was nearly out of college to embrace having a god damn calendar/planner! (Te/Si issues?). It took me a long time to realize that its NOT the goal of my school essays to invoke an emotional response from the reader!

    ...I could go on and on and on.......

    common sources of critique or trouble; childhood patterns; parental pressures, etc. I find that when people can't make up their minds, they're either a couple of the types who are simply too determined to be unique to think that any pattern might describe them; victims of abuse or in the midst of some crisis who have therefore masked preferences; or are totally unaware of the benefits and consequences of how they perceive and judge.
    I dont know what your experience is with enneagram, but at times I prefer that system for the reasons above ^^^. Enneagram seems to be more resistant to those influences. My MBTI has eluded me in large part because I spent 6 years of my life sleep deprived, in poor health and just mentally unhealthy. It speaks volumes to me that some of the people I knew back then similarly see me very differently now. My enneagram hasnt changed. My MBTI type (though in a priori theory it hasnt) seems to have... ...thought I guess the "shadow" version of any type is open to interpretation?

    Basically, my point with the OP was that "honoring" your first two functions doesn't always get attention on this board.

    I don't know if this exactly gets at your post. Big ideas: everyone had better get the first two down pat; the third and fourth add a lot of fun and sanity to the years past 29, and Se is turning out to be a great preference to work on. Hope the snow's good for XC skiing this weekend!
    I was pushed through Se at a REALLY young age (hours and hours of sports/day age 6 to 18) and Ti youngish age (20ish)...will my midlife freak out be as big as yours?

  5. #5
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    7
    Posts
    752

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    Basically, my point with the OP was that "honoring" your first two functions doesn't always get attention on this board.
    Elizabeth Murphy (wisdom oozes from her book The Developing Child says it's the job of parents and teachers to provide an environment where children can develop those first two functions. We'll just have to keep encouraging people around here to do the same

    I was pushed through Se at a REALLY young age (hours and hours of sports/day age 6 to 18) and Ti youngish age (20ish)...will my midlife freak out be as big as yours?
    Well, hopefully you had plenty of time to build relationships, root for the underdog, soothe the losers via Fe And I don't see skiing as a freak-out (I was a springboard diver through college) but rather carving out time for rest and renewal via turning off the dominant--I fall less when I pay attention to my immediate surroundings...
    edcoaching

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-09-2011, 10:47 PM
  2. Lexapro vs. Prozac or best anti anxiety meds
    By Tigerlily in forum Health and Fitness
    Replies: 60
    Last Post: 05-12-2009, 11:53 AM
  3. Norm Coleman vs. Al Franken
    By pure_mercury in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 11-07-2008, 11:07 PM
  4. Type description in your own words...or not
    By zarita in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 03-11-2008, 01:27 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO