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Ti, Te and "Systems"

VagrantFarce

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OK, So I was thinking about how some Extraverted Thinkers on this forum seem to have a major problem with what the MBTI is, and I had a thought that I felt like sharing:

Extraverted Thinkers (being the Extraverted Thinkers they are) automatically think of systems as external rules and procedures to follow - and so some look at the MBTI and assume that this system is telling people how they should be acting. These are rules that are meant to "enlighten" people to the correct way they should be living their lives - what a horrible, soul-destroying thought that must be! INFPs must have it the worst - not only it is telling people how they should act, it's even assuming that it can categorise billions and billions of unique individuals into 16 categories of thought and behaviour!

Introverted Thinkers probably see it differently - this isn't telling you how you should be acting, it's an attempt at observing and describing an ongoing process. It's not an external ruleset, it's an internal ruleset - an attempt to understand what is being perceived. So the author isn't really telling you what to do and how to live, the author is telling what they've learned from observation - "the spectator sees more of the game" and all that.

Does this ring true at all? Or am I just talking bollocks? :)
 

Totenkindly

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Introverted Thinkers probably see it differently - this isn't telling you how you should be acting, it's an attempt at observing and describing an ongoing process.

That.

Everything is informative... and prone to change if errors are discovered.
Descriptive, not prescriptive.
 

theadoor

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Introverted Thinkers probably see it differently - this isn't telling you how you should be acting, it's an attempt at observing and describing an ongoing process. It's not an external ruleset, it's an internal ruleset - an attempt to understand what is being perceived. So the author isn't really telling you what to do and how to live, the author is telling what they've learnt from observation - "the spectator sees more of the game" and all that.

Does this ring true at all? Or am I just talking bollocks? :)


That's how I see it, but I use Te instead of Ti.
 

Poki

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I create systems to make things run smooth, but I personally dont like the way you get locked into a systems rules. Thats why I program, I can create a system and manage it the way I want.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
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Everything is informative... and prone to change if errors are discovered.
Descriptive, not prescriptive.

true as that is, using Ti actuallt will have you look at how things "should" be, but for a different reason than the Te will.
not as a matter of instruction. as a matter of classification.

that is, for retroactive assessment. say a Ti user will notice something they didn't expect. by contrast to the Te, the Ti will use the information to re-classify, instead of reorganize or reconstruct or whatever weird stuff you Te types are always doing.

the real difference:
the Ti type only wants systems to be catalogued for reference so he will know what accommodations he has to make with as an individual to accomplish some goal.
the Te type's interest is with having the systems accommodate him. his energy is spent on making plans for the objects and having them carried out, rather than making plans for himself. that is, his plans have nothing to do with him - he only drags himself along only so that he can see to it that his plans meet completion.
 
G

garbage

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I've got an objection, but I'm not sure what it is. The Extraverted Thinking perception seems very simplistic and inaccurate--I don't exactly observe any Te-users telling people of certain types how they should behave.

If your Ti description is accurate, then Te's contrast to it would be that it's more about application of the existing theory.
 

VagrantFarce

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true as that is, using Ti actuallt will have you look at how things "should" be, but for a different reason than the Te will.
not as a matter of instruction. as a matter of classification.

that is, for retroactive assessment, Ti user will notice something they didn't expect. but by contrast to the Te, the Ti will use the information to re-classify, instead of reorganize or reconstruct or whatever weird stuff you Te types are always doing.

This really only happens when Ti is cut off from Extraverted Perception, so I think it can be safely disregarded as unhealthy behaviour. My real intention with this thread is to understand why some people are so utterly adverse to the idea of the MBTI, and why some people aren't. I hit upon the idea explained in the OP - that it isn't just a knee-jerk reaction to information that contradicts what they think (which is what I assumed at first), but an informed decision based on how they see the world - and I wanted to compare "healthy" use of both functions.

So Te, informed by Introverted Perception, might say: "I don't need this system to tell me how I should behave and organise my life. People who do so are closed-minded and stupid."

Whereas Ti, informed by Extraverted Perception, might say: "Wow, this illustrates a lot of things that I've noticed in other people as well as myself." or "this doesn't seem to make sense to me; I don't think this helps completely illustrate how people behave and think in real life, but I think I can improve it."

I've got an objection, but I'm not sure what it is. The Extraverted Thinking perception seems very simplistic and inaccurate--I don't exactly observe any Te-users telling people of certain types how they should behave.

I don't mean to characterise all Te-users as telling people what to do - the assumption I'm making is that they see "systems" (like the MBTI) as a way of organising your life rationally with rules and procedures. And so some Te-users (who are likely orienting via Fi at this point) assume that its telling people how they should act, even if that contradicts who they really are inside.

Like I said earlier, I'm just trying to figure out why certain people on this forum get such a stick up their arse when it comes to discussing the MBTI. :)
 

Poki

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true as that is, using Ti actuallt will have you look at how things "should" be, but for a different reason than the Te will.
not as a matter of instruction. as a matter of classification.

that is, for retroactive assessment. say a Ti user will notice something they didn't expect. by contrast to the Te, the Ti will use the information to re-classify, instead of reorganize or reconstruct or whatever weird stuff you Te types are always doing.

the real difference:
the Ti type only wants systems to be catalogued for reference so he will know what accommodations he has to make with as an individual to accomplish some goal.
the Te type's interest is with having the systems accommodate him. his energy is spent on making plans for the objects and having them carried out, rather than making plans for himself. that is, his plans have nothing to do with him - he only drags himself along only so that he can see to it that his plans meet completion.

Not quite, I use Ti for objects, but I follow for different reasons. I follow because I do not create a plan and if I do its not comepletely thought out and allows for alot of openness so I follow because further Ti is almost always required.
 
G

garbage

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Like I said earlier, I'm just trying to figure out why certain people on this forum get such a stick up their arse when it comes to discussing the MBTI. :)

I'm trying to understand the phenomenon that you're describing here. Can you provide an illustration that might exemplify the kind of "stick-up-arse" behavior that you've seen?
 

simulatedworld

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OK, So I was thinking about how some Extraverted Thinkers on this forum seem to have a major problem with what the MBTI is, and I had a thought that I felt like sharing:

Extraverted Thinkers (being the Extraverted Thinkers they are) automatically think of systems as external rules and procedures to follow - and so some look at the MBTI and assume that this system is telling people how they should be acting. These are rules that are meant to "enlighten" people to the correct way they should be living their lives - what a horrible, soul-destroying thought that must be! INFPs must have it the worst - not only it is telling people how they should act, it's even assuming that it can categorise billions and billions of unique individuals into 16 categories of thought and behaviour!

Introverted Thinkers probably see it differently - this isn't telling you how you should be acting, it's an attempt at observing and describing an ongoing process. It's not an external ruleset, it's an internal ruleset - an attempt to understand what is being perceived. So the author isn't really telling you what to do and how to live, the author is telling what they've learned from observation - "the spectator sees more of the game" and all that.

Does this ring true at all? Or am I just talking bollocks? :)

Perfect.

Cue ExTJs to show up and start screaming. :coffee:
 

VagrantFarce

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I'm trying to understand the phenomenon that you're describing here. Can you provide an illustration that might exemplify the kind of "stick-up-arse" behavior that you've seen?

Frankly, I'd rather not name names - I don't want to cause a shitstorm. :)

But basically, some people on this forum are prone to criticising others for somehow "allowing" the MBTI to "dictate" their life - describing it as a cult or some sort of smoke and mirrors conspiracy to fool people into a certain way of living etc., and simultaneously proclaiming themselves "above" such categorization and classification. I would usually interpret this sort of behaviour as arrogant or self-important, but if what I wrote in the OP is in any way correct, I think I'm starting to understand that sort of perspective. :)
 

FDG

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Extraverted Thinkers (being the Extraverted Thinkers they are) automatically think of systems as external rules and procedures to follow - and so some look at the MBTI and assume that this system is telling people how they should be acting.

Disagree completely. That's really not how I look at reality, in general. Most theories are descriptive; normative thinking and physiological-psychological theories do not get along. The only discipline where normative thinking can work is law. Basically, if every Te type were to reason as you expose, then there would be (and would have been) no Te-type scientist.
 

simulatedworld

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Well yeah, of course they will. Because this is biased towards Ti. That probably isn't how they see it at all.

Then they're holding the system to standards it doesn't purport to meet, which is inevitably doomed to failure.

Reminds me of people who criticize music for not living up to the standards of the style of music they enjoy. e.g., a rock fan who defines "good music" as "having the characteristics of rock." "I listened to this jazz record but couldn't find any rippin' shred solos, epic power drumming, or even any lyrics! It sucked so bad!"

Before you can evaluate something you need to understand the goals it purports to meet. MBTI doesn't purport to be some sort of system of rules to dictate how people should act; it's merely an attempt at categorizing commonly observed behaviors and motivations, some of which will inevitably not apply to any particular individual.

If you try to interpret it according to standards it doesn't purport to meet, you will fail.


Everything is informative... and prone to change if errors are discovered.
Descriptive, not prescriptive.

She's always more succinct than I am.
 

Jaguar

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Extraverted Thinkers (being the Extraverted Thinkers they are) automatically think of systems as external rules and procedures to follow - and so some look at the MBTI and assume that this system is telling people how they should be acting.

I can't even remotely identify with that nonsense.

These are rules that are meant to "enlighten" people to the correct way they should be living their lives - what a horrible, soul-destroying thought that must be!

There is no "correct way" to do anything.
There is only opinion.

Self-righteous moralizers tell people what they "should" do.
I once caught someone's post before they edited it.
They wrote, "I respect that, and you all should too."

That is not Te.

INFPs must have it the worst - not only it is telling people how they should act, it's even assuming that it can categorise billions and billions of unique individuals into 16 categories of thought and behaviour!

I have no idea what you are babbling about.

Introverted Thinkers probably see it differently - this isn't telling you how you should be acting,
Does this ring true at all? Or am I just talking bollocks? :)

Yes, you are talking bollocks. But that's par for the course.

Ti is subjective.
Te is objective.

The fact that you think Te would subjectively tell people how they should be acting,
tells me you don't even have a decent understanding of the functions, or how they relate to one another.
 

Poki

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Frankly, I'd rather not name names - I don't want to cause a shitstorm. :)

But basically, some people on this forum are prone to criticising others for somehow "allowing" the MBTI to "dictate" their life - describing it as a cult or some sort of smoke and mirrors conspiracy to fool people into a certain way of living etc., and simultaneously proclaiming themselves "above" such categorization and classification. I would usually interpret this sort of behaviour as arrogant or self-important, but if what I wrote in the OP is in any way correct, I think I'm starting to understand that sort of perspective. :)

Some people allow others perception to steer what they do. They then project this onto others in regards to MBTI and think it does this to others. Its really a matter of what is the likely hood that other peoples perceptions(MBTI is created by perception) can steer your action and in what ways.
 

VagrantFarce

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The fact that you think Te would subjectively tell people how they should be acting,

I don't mean to say that Te tells people what to do subjectively, I mean quite the opposite. :)

Ultimately, my point (or assumption) is that Fi/Te users tend to regard "systems" as external, and so see things like the MBTI - a system that they interpret is trying to tell you how to think, feel and behave - as limiting and arbitrary, and not fit to tell people who they are and how they should act (since that is the domain of Fi - only the individual knows that). And so they resist it. :)
 
G

garbage

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But basically, some people on this forum are prone to criticising others for somehow "allowing" the MBTI to "dictate" their life - describing it as a cult or some sort of smoke and mirrors conspiracy to fool people into a certain way of living etc., and simultaneously proclaiming themselves "above" such categorization and classification. I would usually interpret this sort of behaviour as arrogant or self-important, but if what I wrote in the OP is in any way correct, I think I'm starting to understand that sort of perspective. :)

Maybe a Te user would take or leave the theory as it is, rather than try to refine it as a Ti user would.


Then they're holding the system to standards it doesn't purport to meet, which is inevitably doomed to failure.

The point is that this Te description is inaccurate in the first place. The only standard that Te users seem to be placing on the system is that it should match reality.
 

simulatedworld

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The point is that this Te description is inaccurate in the first place. The only standard that Te users seem to be placing on the system is that it should match reality.

The categories are constantly updated and refined to match reality more closely. Every time new information comes up that contradicts the old understanding, the system is amended to reflect it.

That's what this whole forum is for--discussing and refining the categories as we continue to study their relationship to reality.


I don't mean to say that Te tells people what to do subjectively, I mean quite the opposite. :)

Ultimately, my point is that Fi/Te users tend to regard "systems" as external, and so see things like the MBTI - a system that they interpret is trying to tell you how to think, feel and behave - as limiting and arbitrary. And so they resist it. :)

Excellent point.
 
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