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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    It seems mainly how people were raised and what they were raised to believe. The intuitives that I know who have more conservative values were raised that was (Christian, for example).
    Ah okay, and that makes sense.

    My intuitive friends who were raised in a conservative church are (guess the answer!) much more conservative than the "general" intuitive. They are intuitive, but only within the parameters of the worldview as learned and have trouble getting out of it.

    And admittedly, I internally fought with that worldview for years because I was raised within it... but it took me years to follow my eyes and go where my intuition had been pointing. I originally distrusted myself but couldn't deny what I was seeing and finally had to accept it.

    So nurture does have a big impact even in N people and how "open" they are.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I'm going to dig this thread back up for a moment to put in a positive pitch for INTP women, who got the shaft in this survey:

    • Out of the ten most typical traits for INTP females, all were negative (distrustful, sulky, evasive, indifferent, resentful, defensive, wary, unfriendly, tense, aloof).
    • Out of the ten most typical traits for INTP males, some were positive (original, imaginative, complicated, hjasty, rebellious, high-strung, individualistic, restless, self-centered, temperamental).


    I actually found the book cheap online and it arrived today. Now I can actually see the demographics that were polled... and it really explains those findings.

    The largest factor to me seem to be culture. The samples were taken from 1956 to 1984 (!)... a time when there was a huge glass ceiling for women in the United States and including the span when the hardcore feminist movement was challenging the status quo.

    The majority of samples were taken from pools of people voted as successful by their peers... and in general just a few vocational areas... pretty hardcore ones like law students, mathematic PhD's, engineering, med school, and architecture.

    Out of the 30 INTP women polled (from a total female sample of 210), over half the sample was comprised of mathematicians with doctorates and law students.

    It doesn't really surprise me that a woman that successful in those fields at that time period would not fit the "cultural ideal" of femininity in US culture at that, would already feel defensive in that culture, and would be judged harshly by her peers, while males of the same type would be fit more comfortably into those vocations and be approved of by the culture.

    I would be curious to see what the cross-section would be like today, with the culture substantially changed and somewhat more freedom to be oneself rather than fitting a gender-standardized role.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Feeling Females: affectionate, appreciative, considerate, feminine, friendly, sentimental, soft-hearted, sympathetic, trusting, warm

    5. Behaves in a giving way towards others
    21. Arouses nurturant feelings in others
    38. Tends to arouse liking and acceptance in others
    35. Has warmth; has the capacity for close relationships; compassionate
    88. Is personally charming
    Somehow I doubt my Feeling comes off this way to people. I think many IxFP women may not be perceived as the typical Feeling women. My high introversion probably trumps the positive impressions given by Feeling though. And it's no surprise that introverted women are seen so negatively....
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #14
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm going to dig this thread back up for a moment to put in a positive pitch for INTP women, who got the shaft in this survey:

    • Out of the ten most typical traits for INTP females, all were negative (distrustful, sulky, evasive, indifferent, resentful, defensive, wary, unfriendly, tense, aloof).
    • Out of the ten most typical traits for INTP males, some were positive (original, imaginative, complicated, hjasty, rebellious, high-strung, individualistic, restless, self-centered, temperamental).


    I actually found the book cheap online and it arrived today. Now I can actually see the demographics that were polled... and it really explains those findings.

    The largest factor to me seem to be culture. The samples were taken from 1956 to 1984 (!)... a time when there was a huge glass ceiling for women in the United States and including the span when the hardcore feminist movement was challenging the status quo.

    The majority of samples were taken from pools of people voted as successful by their peers... and in general just a few vocational areas... pretty hardcore ones like law students, mathematic PhD's, engineering, med school, and architecture.

    Out of the 30 INTP women polled (from a total female sample of 210), over half the sample was comprised of mathematicians with doctorates and law students.

    It doesn't really surprise me that a woman that successful in those fields at that time period would not fit the "cultural ideal" of femininity in US culture at that, would already feel defensive in that culture, and would be judged harshly by her peers, while males of the same type would be fit more comfortably into those vocations and be approved of by the culture.

    I would be curious to see what the cross-section would be like today, with the culture substantially changed and somewhat more freedom to be oneself rather than fitting a gender-standardized role.
    Great find! Thanks! I'm glad to learn that most of the data were from a time when I was not even born. I'd really like to believe we have progressed beyond gender role stereotypes

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Yeah, and coupled with Orange's comments ... remember that a lot of this data was collected by women still living in the "old modern" uniform world rather than the more postmodern one. I think INFP women molded themselves more easily to that world (in terms of the stereotype at the time) than INTP women could.

    I think INFP women look different nowadays.

    ... and that's a big deal in terms of type identification. What a type looks like in one environ might not be what it looks like in another. Another classic case is the ISFJ, which is malleable to the openness/closedness of the culture in which he or she was raised -- if raised in a uniform, closed culture, the view in adulthood tends to be more single-minded and closed (since the standard being used is singular), if raised in a variety of cultural settings, the view tends to be far more open and flexible (since the standard being referred to is drawn from a variety of settings).
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post

    For example, correlations on the TF scale (Male vs Female):
    Cold: M -.01 F -.26
    Intolerant: M -.03 F -.26
    Nagging: M .10 F -.22
    Pleasant: M -0.4 F .29
    Resentful M -0.3 F -.23
    Rigid: M -.02 F -.28
    Smug: M -.01 F -.24
    Snobbish: M .00 F. -.21
    Steady: M -.16 F -.04
    Tactless: M .02 F. -.19
    Tense: M .08 F -.20
    Whiny: M .12 F -0.08
    Wholesome: M -.11 F .11
    So F men are actually more tactless and unwholesome. Coldness has almost zero correlation.... hmmm

  7. #17
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    So F men are actually more tactless and unwholesome. Coldness has almost zero correlation.... hmmm
    Well, none of those really correlate for Feeling men. Is interesting, but perhaps says as much about social expectations (or maybe socialization) as anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah, and coupled with Orange's comments ... remember that a lot of this data was collected by women still living in the "old modern" uniform world rather than the more postmodern one. I think INFP women molded themselves more easily to that world (in terms of the stereotype at the time) than INTP women could.

    I think INFP women look different nowadays. [...]
    Good point! I actually asked my mom (an xNFP) a while back why she seemed so much more adroit about Fe-ish things. She claimed that women of her generation explicitly drilled about social rules and expectations, so she couldn't help but be more aware. It would make sense that in a more fluid environment without as much explicit social training Fi vs Fe differences would be more apparent.

    I do wish this data were more recent. Would be great to get equivalent data today and see how they differ.

  8. #18
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Thinking Males: ambitious, conservative, conventional, efficient, logical, organized, planful, stable, steady, thorough

    7. Favors conservative values in a variety of areas
    24. Prides self on being "objective," rational
    63. Judges self and others in conventional terms, like "popularity," social pressures, etc.
    74. Is subjectively unaware of self-concern; feels satisfied with self
    91. Is power-oriented; values power in self and others

    Thinking Females: aggressive, aloof, ambitious, autocratic, conceited, hard-headed, logical, opinionated, shrewd, tense

    1. Is critical, skeptical, not easily impressed
    24. Prides self on being "objective," rational
    27. Shows condescending behavior in relationships with others
    38. Has hostility towards others
    49. Is basically distrustful of people in general; questions their motivations
    Who decided where the subjects fell in each dichotomy?

    Because this seems too biased to be true.

  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Assessment staff composition (p.5-6):

    Each member of a sample was seen in intensive 1-3 day assessments at the Institute. The assessments were based on the theories and methods described by Heny Murray in his classic book Explorations in Personality (1938) and also in his book on the wartime work of the Office of Strategic Services titled Assessment of Men (1948).

    Typically, 15-18 observers studied the assessees at the Institute in groups of 10. The assessees were interviewed 2-3 times, were asked to take a wide assortment of cognitive, interest, and personality tests, and were observed by staff in a variety of situations such as leaderless group discussions, roleplays, and meals.

    On the basis of these observations, but without knowledge of any of the test scores, staff members independently assigned trait ratings, Q-sort formulations, and adjectival descriptions to each individual.

    ... Altogether 62 women and 127 men were included in the assessment staff.... From informal records, we estimate that the modal MBTI type was INFP. Most staff took part in 1-2 assessments, although a few participated in 9+.

    Twelve different assessment programs took place between 1957 and 1984.
    Determining MBTI type (p8)

    (paraphrase) Most of the individuals in the samples were administered Form F of the MBTI. A few in the earliest samples received Form D or D2... which are easily converted into Form F values.
    Some of the items used included the Interviewer's Check List (ICL), Adjective Check List (ACL), and the California Q-set. All the typical correlation/standardization checks were done to determine the median, reliability coefficients, etc.

    The numerous appendices include copies of many of these tests... which I am still perusing. Interesting questions -- including everything from appearance, movement, and interaction styles to family background, reactions to interviewer, etc.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Interesting.

    Well, I am impressed with our forum, because there are many T females that aren't hostile and condescending, which is the rule.

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