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Thread: Step II

  1. #21
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander29 View Post
    Interesting point on a "snapshot in time". What I do know is that my results seem to be reasonably accurate and point out some nuances that I know to be true.

    How do you know if it's conceptually empty?
    i really can't say i've done the work to create critiques. i haven't really employed much focused Ti to know what is wrong. but i don't see any advanced relationships, it is like saying that bc you were 5'4 once, you're 5'4 even tho now you're 5'10. you can be more or less introverted, more social, more balanced. your whole life is a developmental track. definitions do produce understanding in that they produce concepts, which are interlocutors for ideas, blending, comparing, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    One would need a measure of Russian bravado, though. Characterising imaginary objects like functions. An in-depth detailing of what the modelled objects are in the model... it's like making up stories.
    stories show development. they are the best way to encompass temporal changes. in this way, it makes much sense. makes me think of the russian social psychologist vygotsky. the ongoing relationship between mind and world, and the way they blend with each other to construct a sense of reality, habits, understanding, etc.

  2. #22
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocap View Post
    worthwhile, sure.
    but they don't really measure the same things.

    that both systems use the same words means nothing.
    MBTI and 'step II' are derivatives of jungian typology, and should be thought of that way.


    personally, i've found that jungian analysis is less of a headache. even if they have the same level of effectiveness, that factor alone gives jung's setup the advantage. hence my bias.
    I could be mistaken but it feels to me like two overlapping circles with far more similarities than differences. To say the systems use the same words and that it means nothing, feels somewhat like a purist point of view.

    Why do you find jungian analysis less of a headache?

    By the way, I'm not advocating one way or the other.

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander29 View Post
    Yes I did pay the $90. Was it worth it? For me probably yes because I was interested enough in seeing the results. I've always felt that there somehow needed to be more granularity in MBTI. Still, the $80 - $90 that it costs does seem pretty expensive.
    I'm thinking it's mostly because private practitioners don't get a lot of business in this area, so they charge more to cover costs... and I also have no idea what MBTI charges them to be a "certified instructor" or whatever the term is.

    What I did in lieu of the cost a year or two ago was go around to as many sites as I could, to find different "sample" tests and thus get a little collection of various type samples. I only found about half the type included in free samples.
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    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm thinking it's mostly because private practitioners don't get a lot of business in this area, so they charge more to cover costs... and I also have no idea what MBTI charges them to be a "certified instructor" or whatever the term is.

    What I did in lieu of the cost a year or two ago was go around to as many sites as I could, to find different "sample" tests and thus get a little collection of various type samples. I only found about half the type included in free samples.
    Probably right. I don't understand the economics behind this well but it would seem like someone could possibly make more money if they lowered the cost. It seems like few would shell out $90, whereas a lot more might, and the momentum could build if it were $20 or $30. Classic cost/volume/profit question. The fact that there aren't a lot on this forum that know much about Step II is telling.

  5. #25
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Step I has 93 items. Step II has 144. Myers had been researching items beyond what was necessary to sort people on the dichotomies. Using second-order factor analysis, it was shown that there were these distinguishing characteristics within the preferences. That's a fancy way of saying that within each preference, there are different ways of expressing it.

    I teach the certification program, which includes Step II now, and the only reason to take it is if you're going to be applying type theory with others (note I didn't say applying MBTI--it isn't the instrument that matters but what you do once people understand how they perceive and judge.) Step II is useful for a) teams that had a type intro, never went deeper, think they know everything and in fact know nothing. Using the longer form gets them involved again b) executive coaching--it's helpful especially if they already think they're perfect c) teams that are already committed to in-depth use of type as a common framework for communication and other applications.

    But it isn't worth it unless the team has time. I've spent entire days just helping teams get through the results--that's of course with interactive activities. But the nuances of each facet are incredible and if you aren't clear on the meaning and just go with how you interpret the facet names, you'll gain nothing...
    edcoaching

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    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Step I has 93 items. Step II has 144. Myers had been researching items beyond what was necessary to sort people on the dichotomies. Using second-order factor analysis, it was shown that there were these distinguishing characteristics within the preferences. That's a fancy way of saying that within each preference, there are different ways of expressing it.

    I teach the certification program, which includes Step II now, and the only reason to take it is if you're going to be applying type theory with others (note I didn't say applying MBTI--it isn't the instrument that matters but what you do once people understand how they perceive and judge.) Step II is useful for a) teams that had a type intro, never went deeper, think they know everything and in fact know nothing. Using the longer form gets them involved again b) executive coaching--it's helpful especially if they already think they're perfect c) teams that are already committed to in-depth use of type as a common framework for communication and other applications.

    But it isn't worth it unless the team has time. I've spent entire days just helping teams get through the results--that's of course with interactive activities. But the nuances of each facet are incredible and if you aren't clear on the meaning and just go with how you interpret the facet names, you'll gain nothing...
    Very interesting. What is the best way to learn about the nuances with each facet and what to do with the results? I ask because the report was fascinating but the recommendations not as actionable as would be ideal.

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    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, there's only that expensive manual that someone mentioned. But you're in Chicago? A university library might have it--or check out the CHAPT Home Page. It's a pretty huge group and someone might let you look at theirs.
    edcoaching

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    There's a Step II now.

    Step I is the 16 types--or your preferences among the dichotomies.

    Step II is the 16 types plus facets. There are five facets to each dichotomy preference. This is part of showing how individuals within the same type can differ.


    So... five? There's five? Holy crap. It never ends.
    You mean people can be more than 16 things?...

    This is revolutionary.
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  9. #29
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    There's a Step II now.

    Step I is the 16 types--or your preferences among the dichotomies.

    Step II is the 16 types plus facets. There are five facets to each dichotomy preference. This is part of showing how individuals within the same type can differ.


    So... five? There's five? Holy crap. It never ends.
    The act of describing individuals through the lens of MBTI is senseless. The main virtue of Jungian typology is that it described fundamental tendencies of thought that all people have. Since these fundamental tendencies are limited, people could be placed into several small groups in accordance to their natural cognitive abilities; however, the same can't be said for their personality profiles.

    There are many more personality qualities than fundamental cognitive tendencies. Many of these tendencies are a result of a person's interaction with his culture or his individuals quirks as well as idiosyncrasies. We'd need hundreds, if not thousands to describe those behaviors and to outline how people may differ.

    If type is to be defined as simply a description of how people are, its bound to be a failure. Thus, instead it should be defined as the natural cognitive tendencies of people, nothing more.

    Furthermore, MBTI step two is guilty of a number of false dichotomies. There is no contradiction between being logical and empathetic. A mathematics professor can be logical in class and in discussion with his colleagues, yet affectionate and empathetic with friends and family. Similarly, somebody could be quiet in an activity that bores them, yet enthusiastic in one that excites them.

    In short, the endeavor of describing the human character on the basis of how they behave or what qualities they seem to display in most of their interactions with the environment borders on an absurdity.
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  10. #30
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Furthermore, MBTI step two is guilty of a number of false dichotomies. There is no contradiction between being logical and empathetic. A mathematics professor can be logical in class and in discussion with his colleagues, yet affectionate and empathetic with friends and family. Similarly, somebody could be quiet in an activity that bores them, yet enthusiastic in one that excites them.
    I believe those are supposed to be like the parent dichotomies, where it is based on natural preference; not that a person must do one and never do the other.
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