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  1. #1
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Default N Dominant pull toward using their tertiary over their auxiliary

    ***I wrote this up beforehand, and now Iíve noticed that itís kind of similar to a thread started by revolve about ENFPs developing Fi. Itís the same topic matter, but since I have additional questions Iím going to start a different thread; Iíll leave it up to the moderators to decide if it should be merged.***

    Iíve been reading (in Lenore Thompsonís book) about how N doms sometimes resist their auxiliary function and rely on their tertiary. Ni doms (INJs) become more introverted, and Ne doms (ENPs) become more extraverted. According to Thompson, itís because our least function is Sensation: INJs resist external reality (Se) and ENPs resist internal reality (Si). I already know what the Ni Introvert rabbit-hole is like, I was wondering about this ENP super-extravertedness.

    Part of what Thompson says about it (p. 207):

    ENPs have the idea that paying more attention to their inner life means ignoring situational distinctions and doing whatever ďfeelsĒ right to them at the time. But Introverted Judgment is a rational function. It helps us to see that our actions have effects that go beyond our immediate situation, and they need to be taken into account.
    I dated a guy (for eight years) who I think had exactly this problem. He tested ENFP, but- the more I learn about the Fe/Fi distinction, and the more I read about the consequences of ENPs turning to their tertiary- Iím starting to think heís a textbook case of ENTP minus Introverted Judgment (who tested F because his Fe was so high). He was constantly writing checks (in the metaphorical sense) that his Introverted Judgment couldnít cash. And he saw it as an inevitable consequence of his ďpassionĒ; he never thought he should feel bad about letting anyone down, as long the promise he made felt honest at the time he made it. If he is actually ENTP less the Introverted Judgment- or even if he was really ENFP, but still without Introverted Judgment- it would explain *A LOT*. He didnít have much of a conscience; he truly wanted to, but he never held the immediate desire to have a healthy conscience long enough to actually form one.

    More Thompson (p. 208):

    To honor [a] subjective value is to forfeit some of our behavioral options, but it also gives our deeper intentions outward form, puts our humanity on the line.
    ENPs are well accustomed to making personal sacrifices, but largely for the sake of their Intuitions. Theyíll forfeit a great deal of material stability for the sake for increased options. But they need to reflect on a situation from an Introverted standpoint- to recognize that their responsibility to a situation outweighs some of the options available to them. [Ö.]
    When ENPs resist their Introverted Judgment, Introverted Sensation gets too far from their conscious self-experience, and they have a hard time resisting its influence on them. Such types turn to Extraverted Judgment, their tertiary function, attempting to keep their Intuitive self-understanding intact.
    First question:
    So anyway, Iím wondering about the ENP pull towards super-Extravertedness. Personally, I know my own Ni dom pull toward Introverted Judgment has been a recurrent theme in my life; it isnít a lesson I can learn just once, itís something that I unconsciously sink into and have to learn over and over again. Do any of you ENPs have this same problem with the Ne dom pull towards Extraverted Judgment? Do you feel itís more difficult for you- to learn the importance of maintaining consistent subjective values- than other types?

    It seems there are all sorts of comments around this forum by INJs, discussing the Ďtoo introvertedí problem; but I donít think Iíve seen any relating to its ENP equivalent (except maybe the thread by revolve I mentioned at the beginning). I realize itís probably because ENPs with an aversion to introspection arenít as likely to want to discuss it- because it would require introspection to do so- but I thought it was an observation worth noting.

    Second question:
    Is this why ENPs and INJs are supposedly such a good match (the former is inclined to have surplus of Extraverted Judgment, the latter a surplus of Introverted Judgment)? Because Iím not so sure it was healthy for my ex to have access to a pile of someone elseís surplus Introverted Judgment sitting around at home. I often wonder if it prevented him from feeling motivated to do the work himself. While we were together, there were friends who actually referred to me as ďChrisís ConscienceĒ. Thoughts about how it could be beneficial?

    [In case anyoneís interested, I posted what Thompson wrote about the Ni equivalent pull towards super-Introvertedness (for INJs) here in Skywardís thread.]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  2. #2
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    He tested ENFP, but- the more I learn about the Fe/Fi distinction, and the more I read about the consequences of ENPs turning to their tertiary- Iím starting to think heís a textbook case of ENTP minus Introverted Judgment (who tested F because his Fe was so high). He was constantly writing checks (in the metaphorical sense) that his Introverted Judgment couldnít cash. And he saw it as an inevitable consequence of his ďpassionĒ; he never thought he should feel bad about letting anyone down, as long the promise he made felt honest at the time he made it. If he is actually ENTP less the Introverted Judgment- or even if he was really ENFP, but still without Introverted Judgment- it would explain *A LOT*. He didnít have much of a conscience; he truly wanted to, but he never held the immediate desire to have a healthy conscience long enough to actually form one.
    looks enfp to me
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

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  3. #3
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    looks enfp to me
    I didn't intend to insinuate his faults sound more ENTP than ENFP. I'm just starting to realize, though, that his F function seemed almost entirely extraverted. According to what Thompson says (if I understand it correctly), it's more likely he's an ENTP who almost completely avoids Ti than an ENFP who uses Fe instead of Fi. But then, I'm an INFJ and I use Fi, so I really don't know.

    The point in bringing him up is that he's an ENP who resisted using Introverted Judgment- and THAT'S what caused his lack of consistent reliability.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    u mean to say entps are a reliable folks ? *drops monocle*
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    ‚ÄúI‚Äôd hate to die twice. It‚Äôs so boring.‚ÄĚ
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #5
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    looks enfp to me
    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I didn't intend to insinuate his faults sound more ENTP than ENFP. I'm just starting to realize, though, that his F function seemed almost entirely extraverted. According to what Thompson says (if I understand it correctly), it's more likely he's an ENTP who almost completely avoids Ti than an ENFP who uses Fe instead of Fi. But then, I'm an INFJ and I use Fi, so I really don't know.

    The point in bringing him up is that he's an ENP who resisted using Introverted Judgment- and THAT'S what caused his lack of consistent reliability.
    Ill jump in and say that you shouldnt be so quick to throw out ENFP (I had an ENFP friend in highschool that did a lot of that bounced a lot of metaphorical checks as you put it).



    Secondly, the tertiary temptation is a nice idea. However, in practice, I dont think its a negative function that people fall for in temptation. I think its a function that most people are pretty weak at, and benefit from temporarily accepting their tertiary perspective.

    --Most people need to be nudged into using their tertiary, and even then, will get testy if they get nudged too often.
    --Most people respond positively to being pushed into their tertiary (as long as they arent pushed too much).


    Example ENFP:
    if you had been an ENTJ, you might have enforced a more cause and effect relationship with him, which might have positively forced him as an ENFP to get his shit together and respect that his results didnt match his promises (Te --> nudging him into more Te).

    Example ENTP:
    if you had been an ENFJ, you might have enforced more social score keeping in your relationship with him, which might have positively forced him as an ENTP to keep his social score positive with you (Fe --> nudging him into more Fe).

    Writing "checks you cant cash" is probably more easily explained by his dominant Ne thinking of all the great possibilities. He writes a check possibility. You take it as a promise, but to him its only an option. He later writes other check possibilities to other people and things; again, just seeing the options as they come. He fails to follow through and thinks no big deal, while you think he's writing too many checks! ENFPs suck...i know

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    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    The dom-tert loop....there should be a thread on that (why do I hesitate to make it....?).

    For INFPs, it's the "Fi-Si" loop, which has been discussed in the NF forum.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  7. #7
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    Secondly, the tertiary temptation is a nice idea. However, in practice, I dont think its a negative function that people fall for in temptation. I think its a function that most people are pretty weak at, and benefit from temporarily accepting their tertiary perspective.

    --Most people need to be nudged into using their tertiary, and even then, will get testy if they get nudged too often.
    --Most people respond positively to being pushed into their tertiary (as long as they arent pushed too much).
    Iím not saying thereís a pull with *most* people, but there is DEFINITELY a pull for *some* people. In practice. I know this from experience: Iím Ni dom, and thereís a constant temptation to for me to use Introverted Judgment over Extraverted Judgment. And it seems to be a relatively common problem for INFJs; Iíve read many comments about other INFJs doing the same thing, and half the INFJs I know irl also feel that pull. I'm NOT saying it's universal for Ni doms, I'm just saying it's relatively common.

    I mean- you may be right- more often than not, using tertiary may be something that most people need to work on. But using the tertiary *is* negative when itís preferred over the auxiliary, because then E/I isnít balanced, and it's a problem some N doms have.

    This ^ isnít a theory Iíve come up with- about N doms- on my own: Lenore Thompson clearly describes the process for both Ne doms and Ni doms. Ni doms sometimes feel restricted by using Extraverted Judgment because it limits internal possibilities, and Ne doms sometimes feel restricted by using Introverted Judgment because it limits external possibilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    Writing "checks you cant cash" is probably more easily explained by his dominant Ne thinking of all the great possibilities.
    This ^ is exactly why thereís a pull. Being N dom can be like having the proverbial carrot constantly dangling just out of reach. Sometimes Ne pulls outward, and sometimes Ni pulls inward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    He writes a check possibility. You take it as a promise, but to him its only an option. He later writes other check possibilities to other people and things; again, just seeing the options as they come. He fails to follow through and thinks no big deal, while you think he's writing too many checks!
    And this ^ is exactly why itís important for ENPs to use Introverted Judgment; it helps ENPs recognize the value in following through with commitments. As Thompson puts it, ďTo honor [a] subjective value is to forfeit some of our behavioral options, but it also gives our deeper intentions outward formÖĒ

    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post

    Example ENFP:
    if you had been an ENTJ, you might have enforced a more cause and effect relationship with him, which might have positively forced him as an ENFP to get his shit together and respect that his results didnt match his promises (Te --> nudging him into more Te).
    Pushing him to use even more Extroverted Judgment would have only exacerbated the problem. Again, Thompson: ďÖExtraverted Thinking canít help them do this. It gives them no experience with their own values and beliefs. It simply convinces them that othersí values and beliefs are unreasonable.Ē

    I know Iím quoting a whole lotta Thompson. Itís not that I think: Thompson said it, itís therefore objective science fact. Itís just that I can see how she described the pull for Ni doms being true- at least for me- and Iím wondering how true the Ne equivalent feels for Ne doms. Itís why I started this thread, hoping to hear about the extent to which they feel that pull. And Iím quoting Thompson so much because itís just a lot easier than paraphrasing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    ENFPs suck...i know
    I don't think they suck. I included the little description about my ex in the op because he's an extreme example of the specific N dom issue I'm describing, but maybe it was misleading; I like ENFPs. Truth be told, he was much better about keeping his word with me than with anyone else (the phrase 'don't poop where you eat' comes to mind). I wouldn't have stayed with him for eight years if he'd dished more of it out on me. Keeping his word with other people really was a constant struggle for him, though.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Iím not saying thereís a pull with *most* people, but there is DEFINITELY a pull for *some* people. In practice. I know this from experience: Iím Ni dom, and thereís a constant temptation to for me to use Introverted Judgment over Extraverted Judgment. And it seems to be a relatively common problem for INFJs; Iíve read many comments about other INFJs doing the same thing, and half the INFJs I know irl also feel that pull. I'm NOT saying it's universal for Ni doms, I'm just saying it's relatively common.

    I mean- you may be right- more often than not, using tertiary may be something that most people need to work on. But using the tertiary *is* negative when itís preferred over the auxiliary, because then E/I isnít balanced, and it's a problem some N doms have.

    This ^ isnít a theory Iíve come up with- about N doms- on my own: Lenore Thompson clearly describes the process for both Ne doms and Ni doms. Ni doms sometimes feel restricted by using Extraverted Judgment because it limits internal possibilities, and Ne doms sometimes feel restricted by using Introverted Judgment because it limits external possibilities.



    This ^ is exactly why thereís a pull. Being N dom can be like having the proverbial carrot constantly dangling just out of reach. Sometimes Ne pulls outward, and sometimes Ni pulls inward.



    And this ^ is exactly why itís important for ENPs to use Introverted Judgment; it helps ENPs recognize the value in following through with commitments. As Thompson puts it, ďTo honor [a] subjective value is to forfeit some of our behavioral options, but it also gives our deeper intentions outward formÖĒ



    Pushing him to use even more Extroverted Judgment would have only exacerbated the problem. Again, Thompson: ďÖExtraverted Thinking canít help them do this. It gives them no experience with their own values and beliefs. It simply convinces them that othersí values and beliefs are unreasonable.Ē

    I know Iím quoting a whole lotta Thompson. Itís not that I think: Thompson said it, itís therefore objective science fact. Itís just that I can see how she described the pull for Ni doms being true- at least for me- and Iím wondering how true the Ne equivalent feels for Ne doms. Itís why I started this thread, hoping to hear about the extent to which they feel that pull. And Iím quoting Thompson so much because itís just a lot easier than paraphrasing.



    I don't think they suck. I included the little description about my ex in the op because he's an extreme example of the specific N dom issue I'm describing, but maybe it was misleading; I like ENFPs. Truth be told, he was much better about keeping his word with me than with anyone else (the phrase 'don't poop where you eat' comes to mind). I wouldn't have stayed with him for eight years if he'd dished more of it out on me. Keeping his word with other people really was a constant struggle for him, though.
    you are telling ME about Lenore Thompson??? x 1000. Before you showed up, I had been the one quoting Lenore's ideas around here the most. She does have great ideas. I also think the exegesis sight about her ideas is probably the best page on MBTI on the net.

    These are my favorite pages from the sight about her book:
    Philosophical Exegesis
    edit cognitive Processes
    edit From the horse's Mouth

    However, I have also read her book. I think her ideas are well reasoned, but the assumptions they are build on need to be taken into account. She assumes that when people's dominant is "overloaded" that they negatively reach for a negative interpretation of their tertiary or inferior. Theres nothing wrong with that idea. Its just that its an idea thats over-applied.

    Lets look at your ENP friend. First of all, functions are not "skills". Fe does not suddenly make someone manipulate people when in the tertiary, and Te does not suddenly make someone organize people coldly when in the tertiary. The tertiary is not a toolbox. When someone is brainstorming, they are not necessarily "engaging Ne". Viewing them as such leads to the idea that every action is categorized. This quickly falls apart, "what function am i using when i engage in petting my cat?".

    Instead, functions are how we perceive the world, ethically and epistemologically. Any and every action can fall under these world view perceptions:

    Extraverted Intuition makes sense of the world by seeing ways to incorporate what is known into a broader context--breaking through the limits of current concepts. For example, sensing, before nearly anyone else, that high-bandwidth communication networks would "change the rules" of commerce. As an epistemological perspective, Ne leads you to practice "out of the box" thinking. There are never any final answers, just more and more opportunities to shift concepts and make sense of things in new ways. Whatever we think things mean today, we'll probably find out tomorrow they mean something different. As an ethical perspective, Ne leads you to take risks and dive into the unknown--stacking the deck to some extent by diving into areas that look especially fertile, but genuinely entering the unknown and allowing it to send your mind in new directions. If you don't know, just guess! Try something, and information will come to you--but only if you stir up the pot. From an Ne perspective, life is a succession of opportunities to pounce on, each opportunity opening up more that you can't yet see.
    So your ENP will perceive EVERYTHING through the lens of above ^^^
    Thus, we dont need a tertiary temptation to explain the ridiculous ENP behavior. Possibilities are constantly seen, everything is weighed as an opportunity thats here right now (regardless of your past or future obligations), and there is no need to anchor onto any final answers or responsibilities. This is a person who writes checks with no regard for his bank account, his bills he paid yesterday or will need to pay tomorrow. Notice how we can still both agree that the secondary function would certainly help in balancing out the person. however the tertiary need not be demonized or even mentioned! When he does follow through with something, its not that he is suddenly "engaging his Fi".

    This first lens of Ne is always coloring his world view, because functions aren't skills, tasks, actions or abilities.

    Now lets look at the tertiaries for ENTP and ENFP:

    Extraverted Thinking makes sense of the world by viewing things "objectively": in terms of categories and measurements that can be defined in advance of observation. For example, defining the specifications of a wheel that make it acceptable for use on the road. Stable categories and measurements enable people to define shared goals and enforce agreements fairly. You can tell whether the wheel met the specifications or not; anyone can tell, because the specifications are defined independently of both the wheel and the person doing the measuring. As an epistemological perspective, Te leads you to be concerned with logical and empirical justification. No conclusion may be accepted until it has been grounded on a firm foundation of other facts that have themselves been firmly established. What has not been tested is unknown; what cannot be tested is meaningless. As an ethical perspective, Te leads to a life of "rational hill-climbing": making every decision according to well-defined criteria for what counts as better and worse. You might not know how to get to your goal, but at each decision, you take the choice that leads closer to it: you improve your position at every opportunity. Moral codes in a Te worldview emphasize keeping one's promises. Justice is understood as a social agreement negotiated by all parties, which specifies rewards and punishments that must be enforced fairly according to objective rules.
    Extraverted Feeling (Fe) makes sense of the world by viewing it in terms of where you stand with other people: interpreting signs that indicate the category of your relationship. As an epistemological perspective, Fe leads you to view every sign as an expression of people's loyalties. A simple example is that displaying a flag demonstrates your loyalty to country. What matters is how you go above and beyond efficient means to an end. For example, throwing a party in someone's honor is not "necessary" for survival: it's a gesture that goes above and beyond survival, expressing your feelings for the guest of honor in a way that all can understand. From an Fe perspective, words are never neutral descriptions of fact: your choice of words, your choice of topic, is a declaration of your feelings and loyalties. As an ethical perspective, Fe leads you to believe that "life is with people": to understand one's value and meaning in terms of your standing in the community--in terms of the people whom you influence and their feelings about you.
    Now if you read the last bolded parts of both. Te and Fe world views certainly have something to say regarding external obligations. Its obvious that if an ENP were to layer these world views on top of their Ne world views, they would be less likely to bounce checks and follow through with obligations.

    Reading an ENP who socially manipulates as being in a tertiary temptation of Fe isnt really genuinely assessing the situation. Sure, he may appear to negatively using "Fe skills", but this is wrong, because Fe isnt a set of skills! Its a way of judging the world (with any action/skill as a potentially inside that view). Thus the tertiary temptation is really just another symptom of over relying on dominant. The tertiary temptation theory agrees with this root cause, but the tertiary temptation preaches that the auxiliary should be engaged over the tertiary. In reality, engaging the tertiary helps relieve the dominant in a positive way. If it looks like the tertiary is being engaged negatively, then they really arent engaging the tertiary (but are still just relying on the dominant).

    Example: ENFJ who is mainly perceiving Fe judgments at a party...it begins to "fail" him. The music has gotten louder, people arent really "greeting" or having much conversations anymore. He has no more social obligations or loyalties to maintain (he took care of that earlier in the night). Should he just leave? Can he engage Ni or Se to help him out here? Thompson might suggest that he engage Ni, in order interpret the situation differently:

    Introverted Intuition (Ni) focuses on what is inexpressible--the incommensurable and chaotic things that exist outside of any conceptual framework. For example, what do you hear in the theme-and-variations movement of Beethoven's String Quartet Op. 131? There is a meaning there, but you can't put it into words. Any attempt to put it into words will result in only a tawdry parody of the reality. Better to remain silent. As an epistemological perspective, Ni leads you to view all signs as meaningless or even deceptive, not necessarily connected to what they're supposed to represent. The true reality is something that exists beyond all signs and appearances, and can only be apprehended by a kind of direct intuition. To learn truth, one must learn to see through appearances--to make contact with a reality that cannot be seen or said. As an ethical perspective, Ni leads you to hold yourself apart from and unaffected by the meanings that others attach to words and events--to keep your own vision pure and pursue your own path regardless of evidence, reasons, or the opinions of others.
    However, perceiving that all this party really is anyways is just a bunch of retards getting hammered (and not really a fund-raiser) might make him happy enough with just leaving. However, he could equally as well just embrace layering some Se world view on top of his Fe lens:

    Extraverted Sensation (Se) makes sense of the world by attending to what exists concretely here and now, and trusting your instincts. As an epistemological perspective, Se leads you to believe only in what you can see and experience concretely, and to trust your immediate, gut-level responses to it. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, then it's a duck. Whatever a sign means is obvious and inescapable; if a sign's meaning is not obvious, then it's meaningless. Whatever is physical, immediate, gut-level cannot be faked and must be right. For example, if you sense that someone is up to no good, then you trust that sense. If you have an impulse to paint the town red, then you go out and do so. As an ethical perspective, Se leads you to believe that life is to be lived right now, "in the moment", responding to things immediately and without thought. What matters most in life is what makes the biggest perceivable impact, whatever stands out in a way that can't be ignored. Se leads you to develop a persona that is attractive and "hip" according to the conventions of your society and your time--to go with the flow without stopping to question the direction. If something isn't fun, then don't do it.
    In short, maybe instead of having a moment of "this party is so fake, its symbolically posing as a fund-raiser, but its really just a drunk fest", he could just get over himself and DANCE by truly embracing a Se layering to his perceptions. Now if he were to just solve all of this by getting really really drunk, I could see someone say "see! it was his tertiary temptation gone bad!!!" However, I would again just chalk that up to over reliance to the dominant function. It would highlight an inability to "truly" embrace his tertiary perceptions.

    The point is (god this is long ) that truly engaging the tertiary is positive. There is a time and a place for the auxiliary, but its not always "better" than the tertiary. The tertiary is often where the "common use of functions" stops (as in most people can access up to their tertiary), not because of some gear shifting theory, but because most of us simply cannot balance more than three of these functions world views at once (a lot of them are seemingly at odds):

    Philosophical Exegesis

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    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    This is all very interesting, Z. I believe I made a thread not too long ago on Dom-Ter attraction, and I think this may be along the same lines as what you speak of, though your hypotheses are clearly more broad and far-reaching. You've been quite the MBTI scientist!

    I know when I'm under huge amounts of stress what little of an Se function I have kicks in hard. Sometimes it's my Ti, depending on whether my Fe or Ni has a hold of me. Tertiary relief valve?
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    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    This is all very interesting, Z. I believe I made a thread not too long ago on Dom-Ter attraction, and I think this may be along the same lines as what you speak of, though your hypotheses are clearly more broad and far-reaching. You've been quite the MBTI scientist!

    I know when I'm under huge amounts of stress what little of an Se function I have kicks in hard. Sometimes it's my Ti, depending on whether my Fe or Ni has a hold of me. Tertiary relief valve?
    would you say your tertiary is a positive or negative experience for you?

    (its positive for me ...I like getting a real Se kick in the ass )

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