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N Dominant pull toward using their tertiary over their auxiliary

Z Buck McFate

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***I wrote this up beforehand, and now I’ve noticed that it’s kind of similar to a thread started by revolve about ENFPs developing Fi. It’s the same topic matter, but since I have additional questions I’m going to start a different thread; I’ll leave it up to the moderators to decide if it should be merged.***

I’ve been reading (in Lenore Thompson’s book) about how N doms sometimes resist their auxiliary function and rely on their tertiary. Ni doms (INJs) become more introverted, and Ne doms (ENPs) become more extraverted. According to Thompson, it’s because our least function is Sensation: INJs resist external reality (Se) and ENPs resist internal reality (Si). I already know what the Ni Introvert rabbit-hole is like, I was wondering about this ENP super-extravertedness.

Part of what Thompson says about it (p. 207):

ENPs have the idea that paying more attention to their inner life means ignoring situational distinctions and doing whatever “feels” right to them at the time. But Introverted Judgment is a rational function. It helps us to see that our actions have effects that go beyond our immediate situation, and they need to be taken into account.

I dated a guy (for eight years) who I think had exactly this problem. He tested ENFP, but- the more I learn about the Fe/Fi distinction, and the more I read about the consequences of ENPs turning to their tertiary- I’m starting to think he’s a textbook case of ENTP minus Introverted Judgment (who tested F because his Fe was so high). He was constantly writing checks (in the metaphorical sense) that his Introverted Judgment couldn’t cash. And he saw it as an inevitable consequence of his “passion”; he never thought he should feel bad about letting anyone down, as long the promise he made felt honest at the time he made it. If he is actually ENTP less the Introverted Judgment- or even if he was really ENFP, but still without Introverted Judgment- it would explain *A LOT*. He didn’t have much of a conscience; he truly wanted to, but he never held the immediate desire to have a healthy conscience long enough to actually form one.

More Thompson (p. 208):

To honor [a] subjective value is to forfeit some of our behavioral options, but it also gives our deeper intentions outward form, puts our humanity on the line.
ENPs are well accustomed to making personal sacrifices, but largely for the sake of their Intuitions. They’ll forfeit a great deal of material stability for the sake for increased options. But they need to reflect on a situation from an Introverted standpoint- to recognize that their responsibility to a situation outweighs some of the options available to them. [….]
When ENPs resist their Introverted Judgment, Introverted Sensation gets too far from their conscious self-experience, and they have a hard time resisting its influence on them. Such types turn to Extraverted Judgment, their tertiary function, attempting to keep their Intuitive self-understanding intact.

First question:
So anyway, I’m wondering about the ENP pull towards super-Extravertedness. Personally, I know my own Ni dom pull toward Introverted Judgment has been a recurrent theme in my life; it isn’t a lesson I can learn just once, it’s something that I unconsciously sink into and have to learn over and over again. Do any of you ENPs have this same problem with the Ne dom pull towards Extraverted Judgment? Do you feel it’s more difficult for you- to learn the importance of maintaining consistent subjective values- than other types?

It seems there are all sorts of comments around this forum by INJs, discussing the ‘too introverted’ problem; but I don’t think I’ve seen any relating to its ENP equivalent (except maybe the thread by revolve I mentioned at the beginning). I realize it’s probably because ENPs with an aversion to introspection aren’t as likely to want to discuss it- because it would require introspection to do so- but I thought it was an observation worth noting.

Second question:
Is this why ENPs and INJs are supposedly such a good match (the former is inclined to have surplus of Extraverted Judgment, the latter a surplus of Introverted Judgment)? Because I’m not so sure it was healthy for my ex to have access to a pile of someone else’s surplus Introverted Judgment sitting around at home. I often wonder if it prevented him from feeling motivated to do the work himself. While we were together, there were friends who actually referred to me as “Chris’s Conscience”. Thoughts about how it could be beneficial?

[In case anyone’s interested, I posted what Thompson wrote about the Ni equivalent pull towards super-Introvertedness (for INJs) here in Skyward’s thread.]
 

EcK

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He tested ENFP, but- the more I learn about the Fe/Fi distinction, and the more I read about the consequences of ENPs turning to their tertiary- I’m starting to think he’s a textbook case of ENTP minus Introverted Judgment (who tested F because his Fe was so high). He was constantly writing checks (in the metaphorical sense) that his Introverted Judgment couldn’t cash. And he saw it as an inevitable consequence of his “passion”; he never thought he should feel bad about letting anyone down, as long the promise he made felt honest at the time he made it. If he is actually ENTP less the Introverted Judgment- or even if he was really ENFP, but still without Introverted Judgment- it would explain *A LOT*. He didn’t have much of a conscience; he truly wanted to, but he never held the immediate desire to have a healthy conscience long enough to actually form one.
looks enfp to me
 

Z Buck McFate

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looks enfp to me

I didn't intend to insinuate his faults sound more ENTP than ENFP. I'm just starting to realize, though, that his F function seemed almost entirely extraverted. According to what Thompson says (if I understand it correctly), it's more likely he's an ENTP who almost completely avoids Ti than an ENFP who uses Fe instead of Fi. But then, I'm an INFJ and I use Fi, so I really don't know.

The point in bringing him up is that he's an ENP who resisted using Introverted Judgment- and THAT'S what caused his lack of consistent reliability.
 

EcK

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u mean to say entps are a reliable folks ? *drops monocle*
:coffee:
 

Venom

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looks enfp to me

I didn't intend to insinuate his faults sound more ENTP than ENFP. I'm just starting to realize, though, that his F function seemed almost entirely extraverted. According to what Thompson says (if I understand it correctly), it's more likely he's an ENTP who almost completely avoids Ti than an ENFP who uses Fe instead of Fi. But then, I'm an INFJ and I use Fi, so I really don't know.

The point in bringing him up is that he's an ENP who resisted using Introverted Judgment- and THAT'S what caused his lack of consistent reliability.

Ill jump in and say that you shouldnt be so quick to throw out ENFP (I had an ENFP friend in highschool that did a lot of that bounced a lot of metaphorical checks as you put it).



Secondly, the tertiary temptation is a nice idea. However, in practice, I dont think its a negative function that people fall for in temptation. I think its a function that most people are pretty weak at, and benefit from temporarily accepting their tertiary perspective.

--Most people need to be nudged into using their tertiary, and even then, will get testy if they get nudged too often.
--Most people respond positively to being pushed into their tertiary (as long as they arent pushed too much).


Example ENFP:
if you had been an ENTJ, you might have enforced a more cause and effect relationship with him, which might have positively forced him as an ENFP to get his shit together and respect that his results didnt match his promises (Te --> nudging him into more Te).

Example ENTP:
if you had been an ENFJ, you might have enforced more social score keeping in your relationship with him, which might have positively forced him as an ENTP to keep his social score positive with you (Fe --> nudging him into more Fe).

Writing "checks you cant cash" is probably more easily explained by his dominant Ne thinking of all the great possibilities. He writes a check possibility. You take it as a promise, but to him its only an option. He later writes other check possibilities to other people and things; again, just seeing the options as they come. He fails to follow through and thinks no big deal, while you think he's writing too many checks! ENFPs suck...i know :laugh:
 

OrangeAppled

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The dom-tert loop....there should be a thread on that (why do I hesitate to make it....?).

For INFPs, it's the "Fi-Si" loop, which has been discussed in the NF forum.
 

Z Buck McFate

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Secondly, the tertiary temptation is a nice idea. However, in practice, I dont think its a negative function that people fall for in temptation. I think its a function that most people are pretty weak at, and benefit from temporarily accepting their tertiary perspective.

--Most people need to be nudged into using their tertiary, and even then, will get testy if they get nudged too often.
--Most people respond positively to being pushed into their tertiary (as long as they arent pushed too much).

I’m not saying there’s a pull with *most* people, but there is DEFINITELY a pull for *some* people. In practice. I know this from experience: I’m Ni dom, and there’s a constant temptation to for me to use Introverted Judgment over Extraverted Judgment. And it seems to be a relatively common problem for INFJs; I’ve read many comments about other INFJs doing the same thing, and half the INFJs I know irl also feel that pull. I'm NOT saying it's universal for Ni doms, I'm just saying it's relatively common.

I mean- you may be right- more often than not, using tertiary may be something that most people need to work on. But using the tertiary *is* negative when it’s preferred over the auxiliary, because then E/I isn’t balanced, and it's a problem some N doms have.

This ^ isn’t a theory I’ve come up with- about N doms- on my own: Lenore Thompson clearly describes the process for both Ne doms and Ni doms. Ni doms sometimes feel restricted by using Extraverted Judgment because it limits internal possibilities, and Ne doms sometimes feel restricted by using Introverted Judgment because it limits external possibilities.

Writing "checks you cant cash" is probably more easily explained by his dominant Ne thinking of all the great possibilities.

This ^ is exactly why there’s a pull. Being N dom can be like having the proverbial carrot constantly dangling just out of reach. Sometimes Ne pulls outward, and sometimes Ni pulls inward.

He writes a check possibility. You take it as a promise, but to him its only an option. He later writes other check possibilities to other people and things; again, just seeing the options as they come. He fails to follow through and thinks no big deal, while you think he's writing too many checks!

And this ^ is exactly why it’s important for ENPs to use Introverted Judgment; it helps ENPs recognize the value in following through with commitments. As Thompson puts it, “To honor [a] subjective value is to forfeit some of our behavioral options, but it also gives our deeper intentions outward form…”


Example ENFP:
if you had been an ENTJ, you might have enforced a more cause and effect relationship with him, which might have positively forced him as an ENFP to get his shit together and respect that his results didnt match his promises (Te --> nudging him into more Te).

Pushing him to use even more Extroverted Judgment would have only exacerbated the problem. Again, Thompson: “…Extraverted Thinking can’t help them do this. It gives them no experience with their own values and beliefs. It simply convinces them that others’ values and beliefs are unreasonable.”

I know I’m quoting a whole lotta Thompson. It’s not that I think: Thompson said it, it’s therefore objective science fact. It’s just that I can see how she described the pull for Ni doms being true- at least for me- and I’m wondering how true the Ne equivalent feels for Ne doms. It’s why I started this thread, hoping to hear about the extent to which they feel that pull. And I’m quoting Thompson so much because it’s just a lot easier than paraphrasing.

ENFPs suck...i know :laugh:

I don't think they suck. I included the little description about my ex in the op because he's an extreme example of the specific N dom issue I'm describing, but maybe it was misleading; I like ENFPs. Truth be told, he was much better about keeping his word with me than with anyone else (the phrase 'don't poop where you eat' comes to mind). I wouldn't have stayed with him for eight years if he'd dished more of it out on me. Keeping his word with other people really was a constant struggle for him, though.
 

Venom

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I’m not saying there’s a pull with *most* people, but there is DEFINITELY a pull for *some* people. In practice. I know this from experience: I’m Ni dom, and there’s a constant temptation to for me to use Introverted Judgment over Extraverted Judgment. And it seems to be a relatively common problem for INFJs; I’ve read many comments about other INFJs doing the same thing, and half the INFJs I know irl also feel that pull. I'm NOT saying it's universal for Ni doms, I'm just saying it's relatively common.

I mean- you may be right- more often than not, using tertiary may be something that most people need to work on. But using the tertiary *is* negative when it’s preferred over the auxiliary, because then E/I isn’t balanced, and it's a problem some N doms have.

This ^ isn’t a theory I’ve come up with- about N doms- on my own: Lenore Thompson clearly describes the process for both Ne doms and Ni doms. Ni doms sometimes feel restricted by using Extraverted Judgment because it limits internal possibilities, and Ne doms sometimes feel restricted by using Introverted Judgment because it limits external possibilities.



This ^ is exactly why there’s a pull. Being N dom can be like having the proverbial carrot constantly dangling just out of reach. Sometimes Ne pulls outward, and sometimes Ni pulls inward.



And this ^ is exactly why it’s important for ENPs to use Introverted Judgment; it helps ENPs recognize the value in following through with commitments. As Thompson puts it, “To honor [a] subjective value is to forfeit some of our behavioral options, but it also gives our deeper intentions outward form…”



Pushing him to use even more Extroverted Judgment would have only exacerbated the problem. Again, Thompson: “…Extraverted Thinking can’t help them do this. It gives them no experience with their own values and beliefs. It simply convinces them that others’ values and beliefs are unreasonable.”

I know I’m quoting a whole lotta Thompson. It’s not that I think: Thompson said it, it’s therefore objective science fact. It’s just that I can see how she described the pull for Ni doms being true- at least for me- and I’m wondering how true the Ne equivalent feels for Ne doms. It’s why I started this thread, hoping to hear about the extent to which they feel that pull. And I’m quoting Thompson so much because it’s just a lot easier than paraphrasing.



I don't think they suck. I included the little description about my ex in the op because he's an extreme example of the specific N dom issue I'm describing, but maybe it was misleading; I like ENFPs. Truth be told, he was much better about keeping his word with me than with anyone else (the phrase 'don't poop where you eat' comes to mind). I wouldn't have stayed with him for eight years if he'd dished more of it out on me. Keeping his word with other people really was a constant struggle for him, though.

:laugh: you are telling ME about Lenore Thompson??? :laugh: x 1000. Before you showed up, I had been the one quoting Lenore's ideas around here the most. She does have great ideas. I also think the exegesis sight about her ideas is probably the best page on MBTI on the net.

These are my favorite pages from the sight about her book:
Philosophical Exegesis
edit cognitive Processes
edit From the horse's Mouth

However, I have also read her book. I think her ideas are well reasoned, but the assumptions they are build on need to be taken into account. She assumes that when people's dominant is "overloaded" that they negatively reach for a negative interpretation of their tertiary or inferior. Theres nothing wrong with that idea. Its just that its an idea thats over-applied.

Lets look at your ENP friend. First of all, functions are not "skills". Fe does not suddenly make someone manipulate people when in the tertiary, and Te does not suddenly make someone organize people coldly when in the tertiary. The tertiary is not a toolbox. When someone is brainstorming, they are not necessarily "engaging Ne". Viewing them as such leads to the idea that every action is categorized. This quickly falls apart, "what function am i using when i engage in petting my cat?".

Instead, functions are how we perceive the world, ethically and epistemologically. Any and every action can fall under these world view perceptions:

Extraverted Intuition makes sense of the world by seeing ways to incorporate what is known into a broader context--breaking through the limits of current concepts. For example, sensing, before nearly anyone else, that high-bandwidth communication networks would "change the rules" of commerce. As an epistemological perspective, Ne leads you to practice "out of the box" thinking. There are never any final answers, just more and more opportunities to shift concepts and make sense of things in new ways. Whatever we think things mean today, we'll probably find out tomorrow they mean something different. As an ethical perspective, Ne leads you to take risks and dive into the unknown--stacking the deck to some extent by diving into areas that look especially fertile, but genuinely entering the unknown and allowing it to send your mind in new directions. If you don't know, just guess! Try something, and information will come to you--but only if you stir up the pot. From an Ne perspective, life is a succession of opportunities to pounce on, each opportunity opening up more that you can't yet see.

So your ENP will perceive EVERYTHING through the lens of above ^^^
Thus, we dont need a tertiary temptation to explain the ridiculous ENP behavior. Possibilities are constantly seen, everything is weighed as an opportunity thats here right now (regardless of your past or future obligations), and there is no need to anchor onto any final answers or responsibilities. This is a person who writes checks with no regard for his bank account, his bills he paid yesterday or will need to pay tomorrow. Notice how we can still both agree that the secondary function would certainly help in balancing out the person. however the tertiary need not be demonized or even mentioned! When he does follow through with something, its not that he is suddenly "engaging his Fi".

This first lens of Ne is always coloring his world view, because functions aren't skills, tasks, actions or abilities.

Now lets look at the tertiaries for ENTP and ENFP:

Extraverted Thinking makes sense of the world by viewing things "objectively": in terms of categories and measurements that can be defined in advance of observation. For example, defining the specifications of a wheel that make it acceptable for use on the road. Stable categories and measurements enable people to define shared goals and enforce agreements fairly. You can tell whether the wheel met the specifications or not; anyone can tell, because the specifications are defined independently of both the wheel and the person doing the measuring. As an epistemological perspective, Te leads you to be concerned with logical and empirical justification. No conclusion may be accepted until it has been grounded on a firm foundation of other facts that have themselves been firmly established. What has not been tested is unknown; what cannot be tested is meaningless. As an ethical perspective, Te leads to a life of "rational hill-climbing": making every decision according to well-defined criteria for what counts as better and worse. You might not know how to get to your goal, but at each decision, you take the choice that leads closer to it: you improve your position at every opportunity. Moral codes in a Te worldview emphasize keeping one's promises. Justice is understood as a social agreement negotiated by all parties, which specifies rewards and punishments that must be enforced fairly according to objective rules.

Extraverted Feeling (Fe) makes sense of the world by viewing it in terms of where you stand with other people: interpreting signs that indicate the category of your relationship. As an epistemological perspective, Fe leads you to view every sign as an expression of people's loyalties. A simple example is that displaying a flag demonstrates your loyalty to country. What matters is how you go above and beyond efficient means to an end. For example, throwing a party in someone's honor is not "necessary" for survival: it's a gesture that goes above and beyond survival, expressing your feelings for the guest of honor in a way that all can understand. From an Fe perspective, words are never neutral descriptions of fact: your choice of words, your choice of topic, is a declaration of your feelings and loyalties. As an ethical perspective, Fe leads you to believe that "life is with people": to understand one's value and meaning in terms of your standing in the community--in terms of the people whom you influence and their feelings about you.

Now if you read the last bolded parts of both. Te and Fe world views certainly have something to say regarding external obligations. Its obvious that if an ENP were to layer these world views on top of their Ne world views, they would be less likely to bounce checks and follow through with obligations.

Reading an ENP who socially manipulates as being in a tertiary temptation of Fe isnt really genuinely assessing the situation. Sure, he may appear to negatively using "Fe skills", but this is wrong, because Fe isnt a set of skills! Its a way of judging the world (with any action/skill as a potentially inside that view). Thus the tertiary temptation is really just another symptom of over relying on dominant. The tertiary temptation theory agrees with this root cause, but the tertiary temptation preaches that the auxiliary should be engaged over the tertiary. In reality, engaging the tertiary helps relieve the dominant in a positive way. If it looks like the tertiary is being engaged negatively, then they really arent engaging the tertiary (but are still just relying on the dominant).

Example: ENFJ who is mainly perceiving Fe judgments at a party...it begins to "fail" him. The music has gotten louder, people arent really "greeting" or having much conversations anymore. He has no more social obligations or loyalties to maintain (he took care of that earlier in the night). Should he just leave? Can he engage Ni or Se to help him out here? Thompson might suggest that he engage Ni, in order interpret the situation differently:

Introverted Intuition (Ni) focuses on what is inexpressible--the incommensurable and chaotic things that exist outside of any conceptual framework. For example, what do you hear in the theme-and-variations movement of Beethoven's String Quartet Op. 131? There is a meaning there, but you can't put it into words. Any attempt to put it into words will result in only a tawdry parody of the reality. Better to remain silent. As an epistemological perspective, Ni leads you to view all signs as meaningless or even deceptive, not necessarily connected to what they're supposed to represent. The true reality is something that exists beyond all signs and appearances, and can only be apprehended by a kind of direct intuition. To learn truth, one must learn to see through appearances--to make contact with a reality that cannot be seen or said. As an ethical perspective, Ni leads you to hold yourself apart from and unaffected by the meanings that others attach to words and events--to keep your own vision pure and pursue your own path regardless of evidence, reasons, or the opinions of others.

However, perceiving that all this party really is anyways is just a bunch of retards getting hammered (and not really a fund-raiser) might make him happy enough with just leaving. However, he could equally as well just embrace layering some Se world view on top of his Fe lens:

Extraverted Sensation (Se) makes sense of the world by attending to what exists concretely here and now, and trusting your instincts. As an epistemological perspective, Se leads you to believe only in what you can see and experience concretely, and to trust your immediate, gut-level responses to it. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, then it's a duck. Whatever a sign means is obvious and inescapable; if a sign's meaning is not obvious, then it's meaningless. Whatever is physical, immediate, gut-level cannot be faked and must be right. For example, if you sense that someone is up to no good, then you trust that sense. If you have an impulse to paint the town red, then you go out and do so. As an ethical perspective, Se leads you to believe that life is to be lived right now, "in the moment", responding to things immediately and without thought. What matters most in life is what makes the biggest perceivable impact, whatever stands out in a way that can't be ignored. Se leads you to develop a persona that is attractive and "hip" according to the conventions of your society and your time--to go with the flow without stopping to question the direction. If something isn't fun, then don't do it.

In short, maybe instead of having a moment of "this party is so fake, its symbolically posing as a fund-raiser, but its really just a drunk fest", he could just get over himself and DANCE by truly embracing a Se layering to his perceptions. Now if he were to just solve all of this by getting really really drunk, I could see someone say "see! it was his tertiary temptation gone bad!!!" However, I would again just chalk that up to over reliance to the dominant function. It would highlight an inability to "truly" embrace his tertiary perceptions.

The point is (god this is long :laugh:) that truly engaging the tertiary is positive. There is a time and a place for the auxiliary, but its not always "better" than the tertiary. The tertiary is often where the "common use of functions" stops (as in most people can access up to their tertiary), not because of some gear shifting theory, but because most of us simply cannot balance more than three of these functions world views at once (a lot of them are seemingly at odds):

Philosophical Exegesis
 

Domino

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This is all very interesting, Z. I believe I made a thread not too long ago on Dom-Ter attraction, and I think this may be along the same lines as what you speak of, though your hypotheses are clearly more broad and far-reaching. You've been quite the MBTI scientist!

I know when I'm under huge amounts of stress what little of an Se function I have kicks in hard. Sometimes it's my Ti, depending on whether my Fe or Ni has a hold of me. Tertiary relief valve?
 

Venom

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This is all very interesting, Z. I believe I made a thread not too long ago on Dom-Ter attraction, and I think this may be along the same lines as what you speak of, though your hypotheses are clearly more broad and far-reaching. You've been quite the MBTI scientist!

I know when I'm under huge amounts of stress what little of an Se function I have kicks in hard. Sometimes it's my Ti, depending on whether my Fe or Ni has a hold of me. Tertiary relief valve?

would you say your tertiary is a positive or negative experience for you?

(its positive for me :yes: ...I like getting a real Se kick in the ass :laugh:)
 

Z Buck McFate

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Okay, so how about we leave the word “tertiary” out of it.

Fe does not suddenly make someone manipulate people when in the tertiary, and Te does not suddenly make someone organize people coldly when in the tertiary.

Good point. Neither Fe nor Te make people neglect the importance of finding and adhering to an internal value system. But being Ne dominant and using a lot more Extraverted Judgment than Introverted Judgment *does* lead someone to neglect the importance of finding and adhering to a more permanent internal value system. Similarly, being Ni dominant and using more Introverted Judgment than Extraverted Judgment can lead someone to neglect the importance of connecting their inner possibilities to external reality.

None of the functions, in and of themselves, are ‘negative’ or ‘positive’ per se. But negative or positive consequences can result from the way we use them. When I wrote “using the tertiary is negative when it’s preferred over the auxiliary, because then E/I isn’t balanced”, I meant to imply there’s something detrimental about using two leading functions that are either both Introverted or both Extraverted.

From an Ne perspective, life is a succession of opportunities to pounce on, each opportunity opening up more that you can't yet see.

I still say: This ^ is exactly why there’s a pull. Being N dom can be like having the proverbial carrot constantly dangling just out of reach. Sometimes Ne pulls outward, and sometimes Ni pulls inward.

For Ne doms, perceiving a lot of external possibilities can pull them outwards- closer to those possibilities- and they might use Extroverted Judgment to reach them. For Ni doms, perceiving a lot of internal possibilities can pull them inwards- closer to those possibilities- and they might use Introverted Judgment to reach them.

Babylon: I don’t know if you’re trying to argue that this doesn’t happen or if you just don’t like that specific terms I used in trying to describe it. But I know the N dom pull towards a Judging function with the same polarity *does* happen, and it *does* have some negative consequences. I'm just trying to find out if the ENPs feel it as much as the INJs seem to (and anyone's thoughts about how it effects the ENP/INJ relationship).

This is all very interesting, Z. I believe I made a thread not too long ago on Dom-Ter attraction, and I think this may be along the same lines as what you speak of

The “stress translation” thread? What you described (in that thread) sounded kinda like an Ni innie P/innie J meltdown to me, at least it sounded very similar to the way my Ni innie/innie meltdowns hit me.

edit: in case ^ it wasn't clear, yeah, I think it's kinda along the same lines.
 

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Even though I'm a slightly more "mature" ENFP (read:I'm closer to 30 than to 20) and am more responsible than I once was, I am still late all of the time, and I have no intention of hurting people - but when confronted with it I realize that in small ways I let people down all of the time and it doesn't even occur to me that I'm doing it. I tend to think being excessively late is about me, not them, but it does affect other people and I need to work on that.

I use Te a great deal outside of personal relationships and when I'm alone. I show a lot of Fi on the Internet because I tend to approach it as a place to make friends, and I've done a lot of on-line journaling, and I'm "alone" so to speak ...so to be more Fi seems natural for me.

But, like, there are people who fear me. My mom likes to inform people how I don't take any shit. My sisters make jokes like "Is someone harrassing or bullying you? Get Marmalade to yell at them for you!" My boss at work says I'm "a very demanding young lady" - I'm the only female at the place who will stand up to him, he's such a prick....I digress....I can also get into states of mind where I am rudely efficient. I don't mean to be "mean" per se, but I'm more focused on what I'm doing or being quick, so I'm not my usual more considerate, lovey-dovey self.

I think I went through a phase of my life where I relied more on Ne-Te than I do now, and it made me miserable. Fi caught up with me in a big way. I like to think I'm more balanced now...I used to be a real wild child, very transient, very "go forward" and "get things done" and "experience new things." I've grown up a bit from that.
 

the state i am in

Active member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,475
MBTI Type
infj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
the tertiary just can get away with being self-justifying. that's the bottom line. or you can challenge your dominant orientation by allowing for more honest auxiliary feedback. so you learn, and balance your internal/external pressure in a better way. you are more accurate/realistic, your expectations are better, what you have mapped out internally corresponds better to the world that exists externally. and you have recognized that you are often capable of being wrong, or only partially right, and might need to change perspective or embrace ones that initially seemed antithetical to your predominant intelligence center.
 

Lily Bart

Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
136
MBTI Type
INFP
This is just personal observation, but since I have an ENTP husband and an ENFP daughter (never a dull moment in our household!) I thought it might be pertinent. People have always commented on how alike the two are personality-wise, which is accurate because they're both dominant extraverted intuitives. What I end up bearing the brunt of, unfortunately, is when they freak out about something and they're still incredibly alike, even though my husband is Ti and my daughter is Fi. It's this very frustrating combination of bad emotion and bad logic that makes me want to lock myself in the closet when they get started. Lenore Thompson does have a section in her book on EXTPs who get frustrated when they can't handle a situation and it's very accurate -- they become incredibly emotional -- but it also works for ENFPs, believe me! Anyway, I think it's the immature auxilliary function in both types: they waffle between really bad feeling and really bad thinking and the combination is practically unbearable. Fortunately my husband has gotten much, much better at his Ti over the past few years, so that he's able to think through adversity in a calm and detached way and even plan ahead a little bit. The same thing has not yet happened to my daughter, unfortunately, but she's still young. Anyway, what I'm saying is that it makes perfect sense to me that someone with an immature auxiallary could seem to go either way and not be particularly successful with either one. The trick is to figure out which is actually his auxilliary and learn how to introvert it. My problem with Thompson, and maybe I have't read carefully enough, is that she doesn't explain exactly what the mechanism is that causes people to go with tertiary instead of auxilliary -- if you're second best with a function, what would stop you from using that instead of your third best? Anyway, even though I don't understand it, I've certainly seen it happen often enough!
 
G

garbage

Guest
I use Te a great deal outside of personal relationships and when I'm alone. I show a lot of Fi on the Internet because I tend to approach it as a place to make friends, and I've done a lot of on-line journaling, and I'm "alone" so to speak ...so to be more Fi seems natural for me.
...
I can also get into states of mind where I am rudely efficient. I don't mean to be "mean" per se, but I'm more focused on what I'm doing or being quick, so I'm not my usual more considerate, lovey-dovey self.

I think I went through a phase of my life where I relied more on Ne-Te than I do now, and it made me miserable. Fi caught up with me in a big way. I like to think I'm more balanced now...

Same here, all of this. Living in Dom-Tert land was hell, and I didn't realize it. I remember being confused when my first counselor asked what it was that I wanted, as if the question had never come up before in my own mind--perhaps my mode of operation was too focused on the outside world.

There's a lot to be gained through actual balance and some sort of honest introspection, and it's a process that shouldn't be skipped by any extrovert.


Embracing the tertiary can have its advantages, definitely:

When channeled correctly, though, the 'Ne-Te mode of thinking' can be a powerhouse. Ne sees many different possibilities in a given situation, and Te can bring a great degree of follow-through, a sense of coordination, and a plan of action for the 'best' possibilities. It's a great mentality to get into when trying to be somewhat productive, a niche similar to TeNi and NeTi but also quite different.

NeFi can express personal sentiments pretty well, but it goes off on many, many tangents.. it doesn't bring things 'to the point' like Te does. Sometimes, that's useful; sometimes, it's not. Thus, Te can bring clarity of thought as well.

Still, it's not a mode that we should operate in for extended periods of time.
 

Qre:us

New member
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
4,890
I can't relate, but, then again using those shoddy online tests and such (I know, reliable), I've never scored too high on extroversion.

I can't stay in Ne-Fe too long, it's frustrating, annoying and draining for me. Inevitably, I'll get more and more irritated and moody. I usually encounter this, when I'm in social situations where for certain reasons, I gotta "fake it to make it" (the networking is important).

And, I gotta turn on the smarm, appease whatever I picked up from the other as what they're looking for, pick up minute stuff about their interests, relate myself to that interest somehow, to "sell me/it". Oversell my enthusiasm in their actual being rather than just get to whatever of theirs I need/want (literal strangers, in contrived situations).

"I'll definitely email you! It' so great to have a chance to talk with you! I love coming to these things. Great organization and turnout! Why, next time, I fear they might need to take the parking spaces of the venue into primary consideration. It's such a hit! Har har har.".....:sick:

And, it's utterly taxing on me. The rare few occassions where I put myself in such situations (a few importatant contacts had to be made, hence, had to do it), I couldn't be social for a few days after. I literally had to de-NeFe myself.

My Ti is my calm...that which allows me my sense of *inner peace*.
It is the one function that I'm acutely aware of in myself. It doesn't ever get beyond me, like Ne does sometimes, and it's not effortfully tapped into, like Fe. It's there. Just perfectly so. Reachable.
 
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