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Thread: Baffled by Fi

  1. #171
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    With Fi, there's this kind of taking something from the inside of yourself and bringing it out into the world to see. At its best, it can take an inner feeling of joy and radiate it out to everyone around, and its light dispels the shadows in others' hearts.

    With Fe, the feeling is already out in the world, and an Fe user has the perspective of arranging this garden of feelings into its most appealing form.
    I like this visualization best from this whole thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    How people operate is frequently situational.
    How someone is at work, will differ from how they are at home.
    Any functional person can "suck up" a personal value in a given situation and opt to abide by socially accepted values.
    That means someone who would normally "pipe up" in situation #1 could choose not to say anything in situation #2.
    Well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Fi could just as well come to a similar conclusion, and it does lead to "caring" about others, because it's about universal values and can understand that wearing shorts might be offensive. That's why Fi is often portrayed as a weighing of values and importance.
    THIS; thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    It's really one function, with a preferred and a suppressed orientation.
    Two sides of the coin. Well said. I couldn't agree more. Not for theoretical reasons, but because that expresses my personal (admittedly unstudied) opinion on the subject.

    I weigh the importance of my own feelings and the feelings of the outer world and choose according to what I think is the priority; for me personally it means I almost always put my own needs and feelings aside. Not that I'm so great or wonderful for doing this, and it's not always the healthiest choice, but it's just what I do. The perception that Fi (and thus the Fi user) is all about "Me, Me, Me - my priorities, my feelings, my needs FIRST" has always troubled me, because that's just not how I personally manifest in the world.

    Of course, I think this would express uniquely in most Fi dominant individuals due to the inherently subjective nature of values in general.

    Ironically, I have suppressed my own feelings for so long that now at this time in my life, when I have more time to direct what I want to do without as many external pressures, I find it hard to know what I feel and what I want to do. Talking about that would be a massive derail though; thanks to all who have persevered in this thread.

    sim, I'm proud of you for expanding your understanding on the topic. Never stop questioning! Conclusions often masquerade as fact when in reality they are merely theories inadequately tested and are fluid rather than concrete, continually evolving and changing according to both our own personal knowledge and the collective knowledge gained by humanity at a particular point in time.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #172
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    "Gee, I have to take a crap. I have to consult my TRIBE to find out if I can flush the toilet."

    "Gee, I don't know if I am for or against abortion, I have to consult my TRIBE to find out what I think."
    My mother is an ESFJ, and an uber-Fe user.

    And, err, regarding her, the above statements would kinda hold true. :/

    She is selfless, was raised to be selfless and completely and entirely family oriented.

    She wants her loved ones to be happy, in fact, the state of her loved ones DEFINE her personal state.

    It's beautiful but also kinda sad.

    She will assert her personal opinion/desires, but rarely, and often they include, I want you to be more organized, I want you to be happy and successful, I'm tired, when you fight and are messy, it makes me so tired.

    She will sometimes state, "I am hungry", but this desire is often cloaked in, are you hungry? What do you want to eat, I feel like going out, (meaning she doesn't feel like cooking), and then she'll ask, "where would you, or where should *we* go?"

    Granted, my mother is basically all Fe, she hasn't developed any other functions.

    What she wants?

    Peace, and for all her loved ones to be happy, that would make her happy.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  3. #173
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    I think it's funny how when people talk about a function on this forum, they don't actually have a definition that they are using and usually seem pretty unsure of their logic (or they are sure, but everyone's is different so meh). Everyone's explanation is different. In all of these Fi threads, I see Fi being spoken of but no one actually really saying what they think the definition is... it's no wonder people get so confused.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  4. #174
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I see where the nonsense is coming from.

    I also see some people who cannot think for themselves and have now resorted to parroting a single source with a single perspective.
    She is suggesting Fe users can't think for themselves and are mere Stepford Wives, programmed by other people's opinions.

    "Gee, I have to take a crap. I have to consult my TRIBE to find out if I can flush the toilet."

    "Gee, I don't know if I am for or against abortion, I have to consult my TRIBE to find out what I think."


    I think you are responding in the same level of extreme you're complaining about.

    Whether or not I happen to agree with Lenore on these points, we're discussing more underlying broad amorphous trends/generalities, attitudes and ways of thinking -- not the level of specificity you consistently seem to straw-man your opposition to.

    That being said, I suspect cog functions to be like light, having dual properties of waves and particles. Sometimes it's useful to discuss "Feeling" as introverted and extroverted functions, to highlight particular angles, but I don't know if in reality it's that demarcated.

    I bump into this a lot dealing with religious family, who I think represent an exrtreme. I can label much of their behavior as "Fe" I guess, if I found that useful -- because they really DO reference external source/community/authority to determine their own values. How many times have I heard, "Well, the pastor told me to do it this way" or "so-and-so's book said this and she's a believer, so it's right?" Everything is communal. People worry constantly about what others think, or how they will be viewed, or whether they'll be an embarrassment to others if they do things on their own, or feel obligations to people outside their family who belong to their "tribe" and sometimes run themselves into the ground doing more than they can handle because "the community expects it, because it's morally what I need to do."

    Individual values are really shunned for the group values. There is an over-identification of self with the group. What else should this style of thinking be called? (Edit: Ironically, I've just reread your mocking examples... and I kid you not, a lot of the religious people I know WILL and feel they MUST reference the group for example #2... and there's even a known minority that will take things to the extreme you mention in example #1. And these aren't robots! They're real people, and some of them really nice, kind, giving people who function perfectly well in society and raise stable families.)


    ... and yet the same people also have absorbed these values and/or share these values on an individual basis and thus help promote/pass along these values as their own. I'm not sure where the distinction is eventually, because eventually the persona of the community becomes the persona of the individual. Was there ever an individual? Would the persona exist without the community having driven it, or would the individual have expressed those values anyway? In any case, the things the community values become the things that resonate within the individual, and the things the community hates become the things that repulse the individual. Is this Fi? Or is it Fe imprinted on the individual? Or is there really no such distinction at all, just a weird complex sea of values and so we cannot distinguish between individuals and community so readily?

    Honestly, all these cognitive function stuff is just a way to deconstruct a complex experience, just as there are three zillion ways we could use to "define a cat" (for example). As such, just like a cat is more than the sum of its parts, cognitive functions will be inadequate to fully and entirely describe the whole; it just focuses on particular issues and hopefully creates an important distinction that leads to some sort of understanding. The framework taken depends on the goal one has chosen.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #175
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    for me personally it means I almost always put my own needs and feelings aside. Not that I'm so great or wonderful for doing this, and it's not always the healthiest choice, but it's just what I do. The perception that Fi (and thus the Fi user) is all about "Me, Me, Me - my priorities, my feelings, my needs FIRST" has always troubled me, because that's just not how I personally manifest in the world.
    Sorry PB. I don't believe you. I have been programmed to believe only the words of Lenore Thomson.
    Therefore you can't possibly think about anyone else's feelings except your own.
    You are INFP. You are selfish and emo. Those are the "rules."

  6. #176
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    I think it's funny how when people talk about a function on this forum, they don't actually have a definition that they are using and usually seem pretty unsure of their logic (or they are sure, but everyone's is different so meh). Everyone's explanation is different. In all of these Fi threads, I see Fi being spoken of but no one actually really saying what they think the definition is... it's no wonder people get so confused.
    Indeed, so undefinable. How do you put this into words:

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    As for what Fi is, it's kind of like this:


    You take this, and hold it close to your heart, and it warms you from the inside.
    Best definition of Fi ever!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Sorry PB. I don't believe you. I have been programmed to believe only the words of Lenore Thomson.
    Therefore you can't possibly think about anyone else's feelings except your own.
    You are INFP. You are selfish and emo. Those are the "rules."
    GASP - I must not be an INFP then!

    you funny kitty.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #177
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Indeed, so undefinable. How do you put this into words
    I love this in typology books, too. They usually save Fi for last of the judging functions. After being quite clear about the others, suddenly it becomes "Fi is like Ti but feeling...," "it's the closest to the unconscious of the judging processes..." and "difficult to verbalize or explain."

    I feel like they might as well say, "it's this judge-y thing, and it's all value-y and feeling-ish and internal, and it's like... err, it's sort of related to... umm... err... oh... screw it!"

  8. #178
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I love this in typology books, too. They usually save Fi for last of the judging functions. After being quite clear about the others, suddenly it becomes "Fi is like Ti but feeling...," "it's the closest to the unconscious of the judging processes..." and "difficult to verbalize or explain."

    I feel like they might as well say, "it's this judge-y thing, and it's all value-y and feeling-ish and internal, and it's like... err, it's sort of related to... umm... err... oh... screw it!"
    How do you know you lead with it if no one has a definition?
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  9. #179
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    How do you know you lead with it if no one has a definition?
    #1: Process of elimination. If you have no idea what you are and you're not anything else you must be Fi!

    #2: Read the manufacturing label stuck to your rump, silly. Everyone has one.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #180
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    How do you know you lead with it if no one has a definition?
    Easy... I'm all value-y and feeling-ish and internal, and it's like... err, it's sort of related to... umm... err... oh... screw it!

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