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Thread: Baffled by Fi

  1. #161
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Fe = harmonizing/unifying the external world based on the public cultural standards of behavior, not private personal values
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B
    Because it's still a value criteria. What you seem to be doing is assuming it automatically becomes Thinking because "Te" is the "official" extraverted judgment of the ENFP. Te may be involved as well, but there is still an element of Feeling being extraverted.
    (Same thing with INTP's assuming all their "Feeling" is Fe, because that's their official "Feeling" function, yet some of what they describe is a degradation into "demonic Fi").
    This sounds more like unhealthy, submissive Fe - co-opting the presumed "agreed-upon" standards just to "get along". A person with healthy Fe recognises how their behaviour as an individual actively defines those standards, and is free to define them in any way they please. So where do these "standards" (or "values") come from, if not an internal function? Is that really the same thing as Fi? Are the same questions being asked, the same criteria being considered?
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    ^ Is that addressed to eric B, me, or both?
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    The thought was inspired by both of those quotes
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I'm not assuming that. I'm labeling it Te because when it happens, it looks more like TJ judgment than FJ judgment. The fact that it involves values doesn't magically turn it into Fe--the functions never operate alone so yes, every Te judgment will have a component of Fi's values as well. It's all one big fluid process.

    Your argument that it's Fe seems to come from the fact that the ENFP is motivated by feeling to interact with others. I don't see why this necessitates Fe use. Just being motivated by his feeling function to do something involving the external world doesn't magically turn it into Fe use. Why does being a "value criteria" necessitate Fe over Fi? Te can and does judge and organize the outer world according to Fi's personal values, especially in types with Fi in higher priority than Te.

    People can and are motivated by introverted functions to do something involving the external world--this doesn't turn introverted functions into extroverted ones. The difference between Fi and Fe is the source of the standard upon which the moral decision was made--once the ENFP decides "I am upset by this breach of my personal values [which are in no way influenced by anyone else's idea of what should be valuable]", he has been influenced by Fi rather Fe than because the standard for his moral view was based on an internal judgment system, with no regard to the ethical views of his tribal group.

    It would only be Fe if the moral belief motivating his admonishment of others were based on the prevailing cultural values among his social group--this would be an objective decision. Since, in this case, the ENFP has taken a moral stance based on an internal and subjective judgment system, this is Fi.

    Choosing to take action based on this internal value system does not constitute Fe use, regardless of whether the ENFP then confronts others in an attempt to enforce his values on the environment. The determining factor between introversion and extroversion here is the criteria for the decision, not whether it's applied to himself or others.

    That's fine; I've buckled to pressure and changed my model to include occasional use of shadow functions. When an ENFP overlooks his own personal values in favor of upholding some sort of external social standard, that is when he is legitimately using Fe. (You can see why this doesn't happen all that often.) Just ordering others to follow his values when they get threatened is easily accomplished by Fi+Te.
    Like I said I've conceded the point that shadow functions are sometimes used (or at least, shifted the way I interpret Jung in my posts to jive with more people's ideas), so I will agree that the ENFP does occasionally use Fe; I just think you've got the conditions for what constitutes Fe use wrong.
    What I was trying to say was not so much where it was applied; but what you have said there would constitute Fe. He turns to prevailing cultural values to criticize the group.
    It still initially stems fro violated personal values, and what he's doing is essentially accuing the group of not being congruent with its own values, which would be a sort of Fi-ish criticism. But that's where the fluidity of the concepts come in. Values are values. introversion and extraversion are tied to the ego's action, bot the function itself.

    So what do you think would trigger this rare manifestation of Fe, then, or have you not worked it out that far?
    Te = applying logical, causal order to the external world based on objectively verifiable standards and measurements

    Fe = harmonizing/unifying the external world based on the public cultural standards of behavior, not private personal values

    Fe is a form of Je, extroverted judgment, which deals with organizing the outer environment in order to, as I said, harmonize with cultural standards for behavior in whatever tribal group the Fe user identifies with.

    You seem to be assuming that cleaning the house and arranging it methodically automatically invokes Te, but I would argue that this sort of physical organization of the physical world is just as easily performed from an Fe standpoint. It's probably something to the effect of, "My tribal group values having a clean house, so I clean my house."

    If the questionable practice which the FJ is worried about actually is the prevailing cultural norm in this context, Fe would lead us more toward sucking up our personal problem with it and just not saying anything. After all, it's the group's customs and cultures, the group's traditions, and the group's values that are typically more important than the FJ's internal personal qualms.

    Anyway, I've never heard anything about extroverting judgment in neither the Te nor Fe form, and I think whichever of these is being "used" is dependent upon the person's motivation for it--does she place more value on the strategic advantage in applying impersonal causal order, or is it more important to her to harmonize with the prevailing values of the people and culture with which she identifies? Of course, I am sure she is aware of both advantages, but whichever is higher in her value system, whichever strikes her as the greater concern, is going to be the indicator of which function is at use. Cleaning the house could be an expression of Te or Fe, or even another function, depending on why your wife is doing it.
    I'm looking at it in terms of the complex being manifested as well, and the complex sis the area of consciusness that bears the archetype. I can compare her cleaning to her psychological knowledge, where she was trained in an extremely Te science of "empiricism", and said that it was not natural for her, but she was forced to adopt the method, and now filters theory through it. So I come with my theories, and she fires into them that they are not empirically tested, and I can tell it is a negative archetype being manifested. Then, I compare that to when she's in "cleaning" mode, and it seems to fit tiogether as a "Destructive" Te (that's only the archetype name).
    (It's also similar to some of the flack the theories have been receiving from Te users lately).

    This stuff is hard to fully explain (much easier to process it in the mind than to get others to understand), but again, the functions are fluid. What are Thinking and Feeling, but foms of J; a rational ordering process.

    As I put it, T and F are just two sides of the "rational" coin, and S and N are two sides of the a-rational coin. And then if these function coins are split along the edge into separate coins in themselves, the different orientations of them are just different sides of those coins.
    There are no hard, concrete objects here. And I didn't say "neither" Te nor Fe. They just blend together, with the line between them becoming fuzzy at times, and then there's the case of undifferentiated function as well (such as feelings of love, or when any person adds 2 + 2).
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    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    What I was trying to say was not so much where it was applied; but what you have said there would constitute Fe. He turns to prevailing cultural values to criticize the group.
    It still initially stems fro violated personal values, and what he's doing is essentially accuing the group of not being congruent with its own values, which would be a sort of Fi-ish criticism. But that's where the fluidity of the concepts come in. Values are values. introversion and extraversion are tied to the ego's action, bot the function itself.
    But he isn't criticizing everyone in his cultural group--just a few people who are out of line with the prevailing cultural values.

    If he were criticizing the prevailing cultural values themselves for being inconsistent with his own, that would be Fi.

    If he were criticizing the group based on a belief that it's important to stay in line with the prevailing cultural values, that would be Fe. If you're going to argue that this is really Fi because it stems from some kind of value, then you've effectively reduced all Fe to Fi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenore Thomson Exegesis Wiki
    Fi: Until I understand it in terms of empathy and how it relates to a living need that I might have, I don't see how I can relate to it.

    Fe: Until I can see where this fits into my network of tribal bonds and obligations, I don't see how I can relate to it. How can I tell if I'm for it or against it until I know how other people feel about it?
    Fi doesn't need to know how anyone else feels about it in order to evaluate. Fe does. That's the difference.

    So if our ENFP friend here is criticizing his friends for being out of touch with the surrounding cultural values (taking into account the objective standards established by others in his culture), it's Fe.

    If he's criticizing his friends for being immoral based on his personal belief about morality regardless of what anyone else thinks, it's Fi. The key to Fi is that it's not taking the opinions of others into account in his evaluation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    So what do you think would trigger this rare manifestation of Fe, then, or have you not worked it out that far?
    What would trigger it is the ENFP caring enough about others to temporarily set aside his own feelings about what's right or wrong and blending in with his cultural surroundings.

    For example, American ENFP woman visits the middle east and conforms to the cultural custom of refraining from wearing shorts, out of respect for the surrounding cultural standards.

    Fi says: "It doesn't matter what context I'm in; I don't need to adjust my clothing habits because that's an immoral imposition on my freedom of expression."

    Fe says: "In this case I should adjust to the cultural expectations of the surrounding context and wear long pants. My own beliefs about personal expression will have to be set aside while I am here--because that's the prevailing cultural norm here."


    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I'm looking at it in terms of the complex being manifested as well, and the complex sis the area of consciusness that bears the archetype. I can compare her cleaning to her psychological knowledge, where she was trained in an extremely Te science of "empiricism", and said that it was not natural for her, but she was forced to adopt the method, and now filters theory through it. So I come with my theories, and she fires into them that they are not empirically tested, and I can tell it is a negative archetype being manifested. Then, I compare that to when she's in "cleaning" mode, and it seems to fit tiogether as a "Destructive" Te (that's only the archetype name).
    (It's also similar to some of the flack the theories have been receiving from Te users lately).
    Well, obviously you know your wife better than I do, so her cleaning at the moment you wrote that might very well have been Te-oriented. If she starts cleaning on another day for a different reason, her motivation might be Fe--or there might be some component of both. I can't say because I don't know your wife.

    The point is that any particular behavior might be motivated by any function or combination of functions depending on the person and circumstances involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    This stuff is hard to fully explain (much easier to process it in the mind than to get others to understand), but again, the functions are fluid. What are Thinking and Feeling, but foms of J; a rational ordering process.

    As I put it, T and F are just two sides of the "rational" coin, and S and N are two sides of the a-rational coin. And then if these function coins are split along the edge into separate coins in themselves, the different orientations of them are just different sides of those coins.
    There are no hard, concrete objects here. And I didn't say "neither" Te nor Fe. They just blend together, with the line between them becoming fuzzy at times, and then there's the case of undifferentiated function as well (such as feelings of love, or when any person adds 2 + 2).
    Right, but each of us prefers to listen to one side of that coin more often than the other. I agree that the functions are fluid and don't operate in isolation--every behavior that we observe in others is probably a combination of several functions working at once, in varying degrees of influence. Each of us chooses to listen to certain ones more often than others. When we tie a behavior to a particular function, we are trying to isolate whichever function was most influential on that particular behavior--even though there's inevitably some influence from the others.

    However, even though both forms of the one function may simultaneously influence a decision, one will always take precedence over the other when it comes time to make the final say.

    If we appease the voice that says, "Go with what you feel inside is right", we're listening more to Fi.

    If we appease the voice that says, "Go with what the cultural standards in your surroundings would suggest", we're listening more to Fe.
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  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    But he isn't criticizing everyone in his cultural group--just a few people who are out of line with the prevailing cultural values.

    If he were criticizing the prevailing cultural values themselves for being inconsistent with his own, that would be Fi.

    If he were criticizing the group based on a belief that it's important to stay in line with the prevailing cultural values, that would be Fe. If you're going to argue that this is really Fi because it stems from some kind of value, then you've effectively reduced all Fe to Fi.

    Fi doesn't need to know how anyone else feels about it in order to evaluate. Fe does. That's the difference.

    So if our ENFP friend here is criticizing his friends for being out of touch with the surrounding cultural values (taking into account the objective standards established by others in his culture), it's Fe.

    If he's criticizing his friends for being immoral based on his personal belief about morality regardless of what anyone else thinks, it's Fi. The key to Fi is that it's not taking the opinions of others into account in his evaluation.
    Well, I'm the one arguing that he is using a kind of shadowy Fe. What I said is that is starts with the personal values, because that is what is preferred by his ego. When the issue expands beyond personal, to group (usually due to stress, because that's not what's preferred), then, it's shadow Fe.

    What would trigger it is the ENFP caring enough about others to temporarily set aside his own feelings about what's right or wrong and blending in with his cultural surroundings.

    For example, American ENFP woman visits the middle east and conforms to the cultural custom of refraining from wearing shorts, out of respect for the surrounding cultural standards.

    Fi says: "It doesn't matter what context I'm in; I don't need to adjust my clothing habits because that's an immoral imposition on my freedom of expression."

    Fe says: "In this case I should adjust to the cultural expectations of the surrounding context and wear long pants. My own beliefs about personal expression will have to be set aside while I am here--because that's the prevailing cultural norm here."
    But the question was, what would cause him to change orientation like that? Fi could just as well come to a similar conclusion, and it does lead to "caring" about others, because it's about universal values and can understand that wearing shorts might be offensive. That's why Fi is often portrayed as a weighing of values and importance.

    Shadow Fe, particularly the ExFP's "witch/senex" (critical parent) archetype, is described as being disgruntled about group expectations. And Fe in general is described as disengaging, as well as engaging. Of course, if one is disgruntled about group values; it likely stems from them not being congruent with his own personal values; hence the Fi connection. Fe shadows Fi in this case. It's really one function, with a preferred and a suppressed orientation.

    Well, obviously you know your wife better than I do, so her cleaning at the moment you wrote that might very well have been Te-oriented. If she starts cleaning on another day for a different reason, her motivation might be Fe--or there might be some component of both. I can't say because I don't know your wife.

    The point is that any particular behavior might be motivated by any function or combination of functions depending on the person and circumstances involved.

    Right, but each of us prefers to listen to one side of that coin more often than the other. I agree that the functions are fluid and don't operate in isolation--every behavior that we observe in others is probably a combination of several functions working at once, in varying degrees of influence. Each of us chooses to listen to certain ones more often than others. When we tie a behavior to a particular function, we are trying to isolate whichever function was most influential on that particular behavior--even though there's inevitably some influence from the others.

    However, even though both forms of the one function may simultaneously influence a decision, one will always take precedence over the other when it comes time to make the final say.

    If we appease the voice that says, "Go with what you feel inside is right", we're listening more to Fi.

    If we appease the voice that says, "Go with what the cultural standards in your surroundings would suggest", we're listening more to Fe.
    Sure! This is part of what I have been trying to say. It's all about what is preferred vs suppressed from the consciousness. The suppressed functions will tend to come up, but they will generally be negative or dealing with negative situations, in which case, the normal inhibitions we have from engaging them (or responding to stimuli from them) are removed, and they erupt in a reactive fashion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Fi doesn't need to know how anyone else feels about it in order to evaluate. Fe does. That's the difference.
    That's the big thing I'm taking away from this post with me.

    For example, American ENFP woman visits the middle east and conforms to the cultural custom of refraining from wearing shorts, out of respect for the surrounding cultural standards.

    Fi says: "It doesn't matter what context I'm in; I don't need to adjust my clothing habits because that's an immoral imposition on my freedom of expression."

    Fe says: "In this case I should adjust to the cultural expectations of the surrounding context and wear long pants. My own beliefs about personal expression will have to be set aside while I am here--because that's the prevailing cultural norm here."
    Pretty funny... it sounds verbatim like the arguments I have with my INFP friend here at work. (She's the former, I'm the latter... and sometimes we've gotten very heated over it.) She goes even further -- not only does she not have to adjust her clothing habits (or whatever), NO one should have to adjust their clothing habits, and people should just suck it up and things should work out just fine.
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    I'd recommend wearing the long pants instead of the shorts, even for people who don't feel any need to adjust to someone else's cultural norms. There are practical reasons for some of these cultural norms. In the middle east, she could be exposed to intense sunlight, especially in the desert area. Less exposed skin means less chance of skin cancer. Also, they tend to have sand storms and clothing does offer protection from all of that. While she's at it, she might want to equip herself with a pair of goggles. Your friend probably hasn't taken any of this into consideration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's the big thing I'm taking away from this post with me.



    Pretty funny... it sounds verbatim like the arguments I have with my INFP friend here at work. (She's the former, I'm the latter... and sometimes we've gotten very heated over it.) She goes even further -- not only does she not have to adjust her clothing habits (or whatever), NO one should have to adjust their clothing habits, and people should just suck it up and things should work out just fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking Tourist View Post
    I'd recommend wearing the long pants instead of the shorts, even for people who don't feel any need to adjust to someone else's cultural norms. There are practical reasons for some of these cultural norms. In the middle east, she could be exposed to intense sunlight, especially in the desert area. Less exposed skin means less chance of skin cancer. Also, they tend to have sand storms and clothing does offer protection from all of that. While she's at it, she might want to equip herself with a pair of goggles. Your friend probably hasn't taken any of this into consideration.
    Probably.

    if she ever decides to go to Dubai, I'll let her know.
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    Originally Posted by Lenore Thomson Exegesis Wiki
    Fi: Until I understand it in terms of empathy and how it relates to a living need that I might have, I don't see how I can relate to it.

    Fe: Until I can see where this fits into my network of tribal bonds and obligations, I don't see how I can relate to it. How can I tell if I'm for it or against it until I know how other people feel about it?
    I see where the nonsense is coming from.

    I also see some people who cannot think for themselves and have now resorted to parroting a single source with a single perspective.
    She is suggesting Fe users can't think for themselves and are mere Stepford Wives, programmed by other people's opinions.

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