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Thread: Baffled by Fi

  1. #151
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Well, it's that too (should have added that, but was in a rush this morning and didn't know how to out it at the moment). The violation of the Fi value is what triggered the reaction, and the person then begins appealing to group values in a critical way; or criticizing the group's values.
    Criticizing the group's values on the basis that his personal values are superior/more important is, by definition, Fi.

    That's anti-Fe. Directing his concerns at a group doesn't turn them into Fe concerns; the key is the original source of the value system being promoted.
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    Yes, it is a sort of "anti-Fe". That's why it's called "shadow" in the first place!
    Again, these things are not monolithic objects. The whole concept of the "shadow" means that it's really only one function (out of four), and we are dealing with conscious and unconscious areas of it, which are drawn along the inner or outer orientation. So a person prefers Feeling in normally an internal orientation, but when this is violated, he turns the same Feeling to an outer orientation (that's there; but normally suppressed). The "basis" as you put it only determines preferred orientation; not that that's the only orientation he is using.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Yes, it is a sort of "anti-Fe". That's why it's called "shadow" in the first place!
    Again, these things are not monolithic objects. The whole concept of the "shadow" means that it's really only one function (out of four), and we are dealing with conscious and unconscious areas of it, which are drawn along the inner or outer orientation. So a person prefers Feeling in normally an internal orientation, but when this is violated, he turns the same Feeling to an outer orientation (that's there; but normally suppressed). The "basis" as you put it only determines preferred orientation; not that that's the only orientation he is using.
    Right, I get that; I just don't see how his criticism of the group for violating his personal values constitutes Fe use.

    I'm not saying he can't ever use Fe (not anymore anyway); I'm just suggesting that your example doesn't show Fe use. It seems much more like Fi getting violated and the ENFP resorting to Te in order to control the group into behaving in a way that his Fi considers acceptable.

    An Fe response would be to set aside his own feelings in favor of maintaining social harmony with the other members of the group/uphold the standards of behavior that the group considers appropriate.
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    That would be positive Fe use.
    We're talking negative, shadowy, erupting out of repressed areas of the consciousness. It is trying to maintain harmony, but in a very negative way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    That would be positive Fe use.
    We're talking negative, shadowy, erupting out of repressed areas of the consciousness. It is trying to maintain harmony, but in a very negative way.
    Sure, but if it's trying to maintain harmony based on an internal standard instead of external one, it's probably still Fi. If the stimulation for taking this moral view came from an internal source instead of an external one, I'd just interpret it as Fi + immature use of Te. What distinguishing factor actually necessitates that this is Fe?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    While that is all very fascinating, I would appreciate it if someone would see if that thought process is Fi or Fe or some other weird thing that is unidentifiable. Thanks
    Your train of thought sounds Fe to me. There is a preoccupation with others' opinions of you.

    As for what Fi is, it's kind of like this:


    You take this, and hold it close to your heart, and it warms you from the inside.


    Another simple comparison, Fe users work at trying to make people around them happy in any of a number of different ways. Fi users, rather than "do things" to make others happy, prefer to share their own happiness and enthusiasm with others, and Fi users respond well to other people sharing their happiness back. Fe users might perceive the Fi users as being too self-involved, while the Fi users may perceive strong Fe as kind of "fake."

    With Fi, there's this kind of taking something from the inside of yourself and bringing it out into the world to see. At its best, it can take an inner feeling of joy and radiate it out to everyone around, and its light dispels the shadows in others' hearts.

    With Fe, the feeling is already out in the world, and an Fe user has the perspective of arranging this garden of feelings into its most appealing form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Sure, but if it's trying to maintain harmony based on an internal standard instead of external one, it's probably still Fi. If the stimulation for taking this moral view came from an internal source instead of an external one, I'd just interpret it as Fi + immature use of Te. What distinguishing factor actually necessitates that this is Fe?
    Because it's still a value criteria. What you seem to be doing is assuming it automatically becomes Thinking because "Te" is the "official" extraverted judgment of the ENFP. Te may be involved as well, but there is still an element of Feeling being extraverted.
    (Same thing with INTP's assuming all their "Feeling" is Fe, because that's their official "Feeling" function, yet some of what they describe is a degradation into "demonic Fi").

    Again, I believe the differentiation of the functions is more fluid. Hence, what was suggested earlier about Jung saying the theory was ideal and would not completely fit real people really makes a lot of sense.
    I should also add that maintaining the fluidity of the functions also explains why J/P would be a distinct factor in its own right. I am reminded of this every time I see my wife cleaning th house. (like just now, and which always involves commenting on my messiness!) She's Fe dom, and you could say cleaning the house stems from Fe, but then the logical arragement aspect of it technically does get into Te (and inasmuch as she's arranging, it does seem to fit a "demonic" archetype in some ways, like her being in a huff and not even being aware of this--unconscious reaction). So which is which?
    I say at that time, she's just being J. She's extraverting judgment in general. T and F are two sides of the same "rational" coin.
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  8. #158
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Because it's still a value criteria. What you seem to be doing is assuming it automatically becomes Thinking because "Te" is the "official" extraverted judgment of the ENFP. Te may be involved as well, but there is still an element of Feeling being extraverted.
    (Same thing with INTP's assuming all their "Feeling" is Fe, because that's their official "Feeling" function, yet some of what they describe is a degradation into "demonic Fi").
    I'm not assuming that. I'm labeling it Te because when it happens, it looks more like TJ judgment than FJ judgment. The fact that it involves values doesn't magically turn it into Fe--the functions never operate alone so yes, every Te judgment will have a component of Fi's values as well. It's all one big fluid process.

    Your argument that it's Fe seems to come from the fact that the ENFP is motivated by feeling to interact with others. I don't see why this necessitates Fe use. Just being motivated by his feeling function to do something involving the external world doesn't magically turn it into Fe use. Why does being a "value criteria" necessitate Fe over Fi? Te can and does judge and organize the outer world according to Fi's personal values, especially in types with Fi in higher priority than Te.

    People can and are motivated by introverted functions to do something involving the external world--this doesn't turn introverted functions into extroverted ones. The difference between Fi and Fe is the source of the standard upon which the moral decision was made--once the ENFP decides "I am upset by this breach of my personal values [which are in no way influenced by anyone else's idea of what should be valuable]", he has been influenced by Fi rather Fe than because the standard for his moral view was based on an internal judgment system, with no regard to the ethical views of his tribal group.

    It would only be Fe if the moral belief motivating his admonishment of others were based on the prevailing cultural values among his social group--this would be an objective decision. Since, in this case, the ENFP has taken a moral stance based on an internal and subjective judgment system, this is Fi.

    Choosing to take action based on this internal value system does not constitute Fe use, regardless of whether the ENFP then confronts others in an attempt to enforce his values on the environment. The determining factor between introversion and extroversion here is the criteria for the decision, not whether it's applied to himself or others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Again, I believe the differentiation of the functions is more fluid. Hence, what was suggested earlier about Jung saying the theory was ideal and would not completely fit real people really makes a lot of sense.
    That's fine; I've buckled to pressure and changed my model to include occasional use of shadow functions. When an ENFP overlooks his own personal values in favor of upholding some sort of external social standard, that is when he is legitimately using Fe. (You can see why this doesn't happen all that often.) Just ordering others to follow his values when they get threatened is easily accomplished by Fi+Te.

    Te = applying logical, causal order to the external world based on objectively verifiable standards and measurements

    Fe = harmonizing/unifying the external world based on the public cultural standards of behavior, not private personal values

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I should also add that maintaining the fluidity of the functions also explains why J/P would be a distinct factor in its own right. I am reminded of this every time I see my wife cleaning th house. (like just now, and which always involves commenting on my messiness!) She's Fe dom, and you could say cleaning the house stems from Fe, but then the logical arragement aspect of it technically does get into Te (and inasmuch as she's arranging, it does seem to fit a "demonic" archetype in some ways, like her being in a huff and not even being aware of this--unconscious reaction). So which is which?
    I say at that time, she's just being J. She's extraverting judgment in general. T and F are two sides of the same "rational" coin.
    Fe is a form of Je, extroverted judgment, which deals with organizing the outer environment in order to, as I said, harmonize with cultural standards for behavior in whatever tribal group the Fe user identifies with.

    You seem to be assuming that cleaning the house and arranging it methodically automatically invokes Te, but I would argue that this sort of physical organization of the physical world is just as easily performed from an Fe standpoint. It's probably something to the effect of, "My tribal group values having a clean house, so I clean my house."

    If the questionable practice which the FJ is worried about actually is the prevailing cultural norm in this context, Fe would lead us more toward sucking up our personal problem with it and just not saying anything. After all, it's the group's customs and cultures, the group's traditions, and the group's values that are typically more important than the FJ's internal personal qualms.

    Anyway, I've never heard anything about extroverting judgment in neither the Te nor Fe form, and I think whichever of these is being "used" is dependent upon the person's motivation for it--does she place more value on the strategic advantage in applying impersonal causal order, or is it more important to her to harmonize with the prevailing values of the people and culture with which she identifies? Of course, I am sure she is aware of both advantages, but whichever is higher in her value system, whichever strikes her as the greater concern, is going to be the indicator of which function is at use. Cleaning the house could be an expression of Te or Fe, or even another function, depending on why your wife is doing it.

    Like I said I've conceded the point that shadow functions are sometimes used (or at least, shifted the way I interpret Jung in my posts to jive with more people's ideas), so I will agree that the ENFP does occasionally use Fe; I just think you've got the conditions for what constitutes Fe use wrong.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #159
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    That's fine; I've buckled to pressure and changed my model to include occasional use of shadow functions. When an ENFP overlooks his own personal values in favor of upholding some sort of external social standard, that is when he is legitimately using Fe. (You can see why this doesn't happen all that often.)
    That must be why all those ENFPs are arming themselves with uzis and shooting up the place when they get pissed off that their food is served cold, at a restaurant.
    Yes, that must be it. No ability to uphold an external social standard.
    Fe = harmonizing/unifying the external world based on the public cultural standards of behavior, not private personal values
    Anyone can do the above.

    Fe is a form of Je, extroverted judgment, which deals with organizing the outer environment in order to, as I said, harmonize with cultural standards for behavior in whatever tribal group the Fe user identifies with.
    I'm sure Dom Fe's will love you suggesting they are incapable of doing anything unless it has to do with their "tribal group."

    It's probably something to the effect of, "My tribal group values having a clean house, so I clean my house."
    I can see it now, female EXFJs around the world are cleaning their houses because their TRIBAL GROUP is sending them signals via headset.



    Fe would lead us more toward sucking up our personal problem with it and just not saying anything.
    How people operate is frequently situational.
    How someone is at work, will differ from how they are at home.
    Any functional person can "suck up" a personal value in a given situation and opt to abide by socially accepted values.
    That means someone who would normally "pipe up" in situation #1 could choose not to say anything in situation #2.

    If you cannot successfully cultivate relationships and serve your client's needs in business, rather than your own, then people are pretty much SOL.
    If you are some fella who works alone all day in a cubicle, that's a different story.
    But by and large when it comes to conducting business, you are out in the world interacting with others and not sitting alone in a dark corner.

    Fe is not only the glue that holds a team together, it is also the air upon which a team can take flight.
    And if a team member has her boyfriend beating her at home, I assure you it wasn't my Fi meeting with her in my office to get her through it.
    Fe isn't just about socially accepted values, or appropriateness, it's the ability to extend a helping hand to another person because you care about them.

    Sorry bubba, you're going to have to get your feet wet one day.
    There is no short cut to dealing with real people.
    I think it's only a matter of time before people begin looking at you like you're nutty,
    when you keep insisting something is "true" of a person just because of a theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I can see it now, female EXFJs around the world are cleaning their houses because their TRIBAL GROUP is sending them signals via headset.

    Wow... I'd wear my tribal headset and carry my mop proudly, if I could be that skinny.... *dreamy sigh*
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