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Thread: Baffled by Fi

  1. #111
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Sigh...

    Neo's an ISTP.

    By "awakened" I mean overcome the impact of inferior Fe to "not rock the boat" with Ni's insights (you know, the whole point of the film). When that Fe was assuaged through Trinity's love for him, the unleashed Ni combined with the TiSe's faculty to understand systems and began to manipulate the Matrix in its own image.

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    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Why I used that clip:

    Oracle: It means know thyself. I wanna tell you a little secret, being the one is just like being in love. No one needs to tell you you are in love, you just know it, through and through.
    Allow me now to explain myself.

    To me, being in Fi is like being in love, you just know it, through and through. You can't explain it, you just know it, and it's hard for anyone else to enter that indescribable place where your thoughts and feelings flow from. Trying to explain it is like trying to explain the wonder of the blue sky above us. Of course you CAN explain why the sky is blue, but the magic of looking up and being enveloped in the largesse is lost in the attempt.

    You recognize those other people who are in that same or similar space. And it's a click, a connection, a knowing. It's hard to define and thus as LL says, "Baffled by Fi".

    That is basically what I want to say, that's all.

    For the literalists, my apologies for any previous confusion.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #113
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Sigh...

    Neo's an ISTP.

    By "awakened" I mean overcome the impact of inferior Fe to "not rock the boat" with Ni's insights (you know, the whole point of the film). When that Fe was assuaged through Trinity's love for him, the unleashed Ni combined with the TiSe's faculty to understand systems and began to manipulate the Matrix in its own image.
    Surely in MBTI terms, if anything is "unleashed" at the end of the film, it's going to be an auxillary function (or at the very least, an extraverted function)? He's able to finally step outside of his on shell and, in a very big way, "fulfill his potential" and actually make a difference in the outer world.
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  4. #114
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Why I used that clip:



    Allow me now to explain myself.

    To me, being in Fi is like being in love, you just know it, through and through. You can't explain it, you just know it, and it's hard for anyone else to enter that indescribable place where your thoughts and feelings flow from. Trying to explain it is like trying to explain the wonder of the blue sky above us. Of course you CAN explain why the sky is blue, but the magic of looking up and being enveloped in the largesse is lost in the attempt.

    You recognize those other people who are in that same or similar space. And it's a click, a connection, a knowing. It's hard to define and thus as LL says, "Baffled by Fi".

    That is basically what I want to say, that's all.

    For the literalists, my apologies for any previous confusion.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  5. #115
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    Surely in MBTI terms, if anything is "unleashed" at the end of the film, it's going to be an auxillary function (or at the very least, an extraverted function)? He's able to finally step outside of his on shell and, in a very big way, "fulfill his potential" and actually make a difference in the outer world.
    He understood the Matrix on a sensory level, like he did his entire life. He didn't know the Ni truth behind the mirror (that is, the streams of computer code he sees at the end) until the end. This correlates entirely with the emergence of the tertiary function in the mid to late 20s.

    He understood the logic of the Matrix instinctively (Ti). However, he only understood it as the holistic model (Se). Once he overcame his aversion to leadership (Fe), he was able to harness his intuitive vision to instinctively manipulate the system that is the Matrix.

    It's not an extraverted function, because he has no need to break out of the shell. The Matrix IS the shell. To become the One, he had to break down the shell, to go within it and understand its mechanics, and how bits and pieces logically interacted with one another (since it's all logic within there, those are machines who created it). He had to realize the truth hiding within the Matrix.

    Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
    Neo: What truth?
    Spoon boy: There is no spoon.
    Neo: There is no spoon?
    Spoon boy: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.

  6. #116
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    He understood the Matrix on a sensory level, like he did his entire life. He didn't know the Ni truth behind the mirror (that is, the streams of computer code he sees at the end) until the end. This correlates entirely with the emergence of the tertiary function in the mid to late 20s.
    I suppose this is where we disagree, since I don't think the tertiary function "emerges" in the mid to late 20s - in fact I reject the notion of the functions developing in that sort of linear, easy-to-predict manner. I just don't think it reflects how people actually behave, or develop as individuals. To me, the tertiary function is always there - an "ego pacifier", a way for people to reject taking the standpoint that the inferior function is beating down on them. I think that more closely reflects the way people actually behave in real-life.

    So ISPs, in an attempt to avoid taking on an extraverted judging standpoint, refer to Introverted Intuition to help them dismiss it - usually by seeing through smokes and mirrors that typically aren't there. It results in a sort of adolescent, contrarian rebelliousness that's well illustrated in everyday behaviour, as well as films like "Rebel Without A Cause" or "Fight Club". Extraverted Sensation allows them to see the world for what it really is, and allows them to accept changing circumstances and to finally enter the lives of others in a positive fashion.

    Here's a great example of Tertiary-Ni causing an ISP to go off the rails:

    [youtube=JlSzWJ0-r24]Tertiary-Ni[/youtube]

    I think the reason that the tertiary function is correlated to "emerge" in the 20s is because that is when almost all young people in western culture "move out" and become more independent and reliant on themselves - either they become unsure of themselves and lean more on their tertiary function to help guide them, or they finally have the freedom to placate their own ego on their own terms.
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  7. #117
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Right, but I don't claim that no one uses the inferior function--only that we don't use the so-called "shadow functions." Everyone has some use of each process N, S, T and F but very rarely in the direction other than the preferred one.

    This may just be a question of semantics. For instance, if all Ti people show a cognitive tendency to use Thinking in a purely subjective and internal way, can we not reason that Ti represents the value system that Thinking is best done internally? Jung may not have explicitly stated this, but I think it can be reasonably inferred from what he did say.

    Indeed, I've agreed that the shadow functions may be used very rarely...if Ti is, for instance, "far more pronounced" than Fi, then use of Fi would have to be pretty unusual by comparison. I will concede that perhaps we can occasionally use the shadow functions, but they must necessarily be weaker and of vastly lesser influence than the preferred forms.
    I'm willing to consider that perhaps these processes are used occasionally, but only weakly and certainly not in any capacity comparable to the preferred forms of each process. Use of the shadows seems to require stepping pretty far out of one's normal cognitive comfort zone, and thus seems unlikely to happen often at all.
    Personally, I suspect that cognitive processes are not solidified until somewhere around the teenage years/young adulthood, as very young people have not yet settled into patterns of cognition that will define their identities. Nevertheless, once these patterns have been solidified, introverted functions continue to operate internally and do not bend to changes in external conditions, hence my description of their use as "a priori."
    I made no such conclusion; I simply declared that in a Ti-dominated mind, Feeling comes almost exclusively in the form of Fe, rather than Fi. I never made any claim that the Thinking-dominated mind has no capacity for Feeling or vice versa.

    Once again I made no claim that Thinking/Feeling cannot exist simultaneously in the same person, just that the two contradict each other when oriented in the same direction.
    After reading your arguments, I'm willing to amend my position to "rarely" rather than "never", but again, I suspect that use of the non-preferred orientation of any process requires highly stressful or otherwise unusual circumstances and is not something people can do routinely or without expenditure of a great deal of energy.
    Yes, it's about what is "best" done, and the shadows will be weaker, and out of the comfort zone. But I think we end up stepping ouit of our comfort zone and doing what is not best a bit more than "rarely".
    So I don't see how one could have both strong Ti and strong Fi. Ti's strength necessitates Fi's relative great weakness and vice versa, does it not?
    My initial argument was that the tertiary and inferior functions develop into stronger parts of one's personality as he ages, but that the shadow functions are either rarely or never used. I never claimed that the tertiary and inferior are not used.
    They won't be equally strong. The preferred internal judgment will still be Thinking, and all it means is that he has also learned to use Feeling internally to some extent as well. In fact, on cognitive process tests, this will often come up at least moderate strength, while the actual "inferior" (Fe) will be the actual weakest. This is one reason people prefer Lenore's "lasagna" stacking order, which is like that, and closer to people's strength order.
    The way I read that, is precislely because Fe is the most consciously rejected (while Fi is unconscious).

    Not only are function attitudes different sides of the same coin, but I would say the functions themselves are. Like our psyches are a thick coin. One side is j, the other is p. Split the coin in half into separate j and p coins. One side of j is Thinking, and the other is Feeling. Split those into separate T and F coins, which can then be split into i and e coins. (This follows the order of letter preference at least one person/site has identified).

    The point here, is, even T and F are not the totally separate animals they are being made out to be. They are both judging. The line between them does become fuzzy, especially with all the people weighing between both. So it is easy to see how someone can use both in the same area. Yes, the opposite one from the truly preferred will be awkward, and likely associated with stress, or things being wrong (even if it is a positive aspcet of this, such as "demon as transformer"). But it can still be there, strongly.

    Fair enough--what sort of circumstances do you think might lead a person to choose the non-preferred orientation of any function, and how often do you think this might happen? I suggest that it only occurs in times of unusually high stress that forces a person out of his comfort zone.
    Most likely, being in situations where he has had to use that sort of function a lot. Even though it is very negative, you become used to it. With me, there's Fi and Te, to the point that people had put it together into me being an ENFP. I would think I do have a lot of those Fi qualities, which comes out in my enthusiasm for the discussions I engage in. And then, rationalizing my ideas. That stems from my background, where my internal logic was often put down (triggering the "right brain alternative", internal valuing), and my personal integrity with it, and I learned to have these strong emotions around things I like and want to stand up for, especially when they are threatened, and defend them with external logic (after all, I'm trying to get the other person to see). Like my reaction to this Humane Society cruelty to animals commercial they have been playing a lot recently, and with the sad emotional music. I can barely watch it, and get very angry. (I 've been thinking of asking mature Fi users what they're reaction is. I'm sure they are hurt by it, but probably react in a much more mature emotional fashion).
    Even if I might get enjoyment out of it, there is still a very negative association tied to it. It is a defensive reaction that I have learned to get some good use out of (the good side of the "destructive" archetype is described as "turning lemon into lemonade").

    You know, like people are stressed, and then turn to substances to make them feel better, which in ENxP types, for instance, is said to be a particular problem stemming from "destructive" Se. That doesn't mean that no other type will abuse substances as a relief. Just that for ENP's it might be a special problem, since they have a particular complex that will tend to use the current senses that way. They can learn how to use this to their advantage.

    From here, you may make the objection that this is claiming any physical pleasure is "use" of Se. I have been saying, from what I gathered from Lenore, that the functions also manifest in "undifferentiated" form, where we are not "using" a "process"; like with falling in love. I say it can be hard to sort out what is a process in a particular archetypal role, and what is undifferentiated. Those too seem to have a fuzzy line between them. Still, I think it can be genuine shadow use more than "rarely". Especially if the person has had a lot of stress.

    I'm inclined to go along with Jung in the functions not being applicable to real people (if I read that correctly). I could see that as being an "ideal" template to map people's behavior on, and that it was not intended to ever fit anyone perfectly.
    Most of my disputes with the eight-function model are with those who define functions according to individual surface actions; e.g., "I looked around and saw what was around me" = "I used Se." I dislike this interpretation as I find it vastly oversimplified and out of sync with the notion that cognitive functions represent cognitive tendencies or value systems.

    I take most issue with the idea that any given action constitutes use of any particular function; rather, I think my use of the term "value systems" is very similar to what you mean when you say the functions represent "cognitive tendencies"--they can be conscious or unconscious and do not necessarily involve ethical decisions.

    So when an ENFP shows up and says something like, "Yeah guys I use Ti all the time!", it's usually because he's misinterpreted "using Ti" as "doing something logical", and it's this interpretation that bothers me most. If ENFPs do indeed use Ti, they would only do so in occasional instances of unusually stressful circumstances that force them out of the standard preference for Fi+Te...they are not "using Ti" on a regular basis every time they make a logical judgment.
    And this is where the "undifferentiated function" concept came into good use.
    I would still say there is a middle ground between that, and just saying the shadows are hardly ever used. If the ENFP's Ti is strong, it won't be about him doing a lot of logical things. According to the archetypes, it might come out more as a strong sense of humor, regarding logic or Ti users.
    FWIW, you can see elfinchilde's dissection of a hypothetical ENFP with strong Trickster Ti here: The Little Puddin' that Could - View Single Post - personality, and again; it's not a person just using a lot of logic in normal situations.
    a strong Ti means that there is an ability to critically think and analyse through things; however, paired with a weak daemon [Se], means that there'd be a tendency to overanalyse erroneously on current environments: ie, a likelihood of overthinking and ending up in thought loops, on some minor detail that you happen to pick up-->reading, for instance, that a single look from someone means everyone dislikes you.
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  8. #118
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    ^Thanks a lot for the above, Eric B.... definitely very helpful.

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    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    I suppose this is where we disagree, since I don't think the tertiary function "emerges" in the mid to late 20s - in fact I reject the notion of the functions developing in that sort of linear, easy-to-predict manner. I just don't think it reflects how people actually behave, or develop as individuals. To me, the tertiary function is always there - an "ego pacifier", a way for people to reject taking the standpoint that the inferior function is beating down on them. I think that more closely reflects the way people actually behave in real-life.

    So ISPs, in an attempt to avoid taking on an extraverted judging standpoint, refer to Introverted Intuition to help them dismiss it - usually by seeing through smokes and mirrors that typically aren't there. It results in a sort of adolescent, contrarian rebelliousness that's well illustrated in everyday behaviour, as well as films like "Rebel Without A Cause" or "Fight Club". Extraverted Sensation allows them to see the world for what it really is, and allows them to accept changing circumstances and to finally enter the lives of others in a positive fashion.
    Neo does live a double life as a hacker, did tell Smith to fuck off upon their first meeting, and initially told Morpheus he was full of it. However, Morpheus appealed to this very same Ni when he pointed out how Neo felt his entire life like the world wasn't what everyone thought it was.

  10. #120
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Neo does live a double life as a hacker, did tell Smith to fuck off upon their first meeting, and initially told Morpheus he was full of it. However, Morpheus appealed to this very same Ni when he pointed out how Neo felt his entire life like the world wasn't what everyone thought it was.
    I agree, but my contention was that ISPs don't suddenly gain Ni like it was a superpower, it doesn't need to be "awakened" - it's something to grow out of, because the influence it has on ISPs can be too selfish and negative. I'm not sure the Neo character really illustrates that development.
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