User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 47

  1. #1
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    2,591

    Default What is the logic behind the temperments?

    Could someone dumb these down for me?

    Why are Sensors either SPs or SJs

    and

    Intuitives NFs or NTs?



    Why isn't it SP/SJ vs NP/NJ


    Or SF/ST vs NF/NT?



    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    Ok I will do my best,

    Temprements is an ancient way of dividing people up - like 000's of years before MBTI, developed around Plato or Aritotle's time.... used in medicine. Temprements = Sangiun, Coleric, phlegmatic, melancolic (?sp of all of these)...

    But I suspect you don't mean temprements I think you mean the S V N divide.

    S are sensors, the process information from senses - ie they receive information in a sensory absorbtion way, Intuatives (N), receive information Intuatively....they seem to absorbe information.

    S types are specific detailed orientated
    N types are broad in their orientation

    S types use concrete language, they use solid words, data, tangibles to explore their world.

    N types like abstract language, like ideas or discriptions.

    I suspect if you ask an S type for an Itinery, they will say take this train at such and such a time, for x numbers of stops and get off here... to get to Y desination for 3pm. The S type will give you layers of information, sometimes way too much

    N types would likely to say meet me at Y in the afternoon. N types may give too little information, or too abstract.


    Hope this helps

  3. #3
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    2,591

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Ok I will do my best,

    Temprements is an ancient way of dividing people up - like 000's of years before MBTI, developed around Plato or Aritotle's time.... used in medicine. Temprements = Sangiun, Coleric, phlegmatic, melancolic (?sp of all of these)...

    But I suspect you don't mean temprements I think you mean the S V N divide.

    S are sensors, the process information from senses - ie they receive information in a sensory absorbtion way, Intuatives (N), receive information Intuatively....they seem to absorbe information.

    S types are specific detailed orientated
    N types are broad in their orientation

    S types use concrete language, they use solid words, data, tangibles to explore their world.

    N types like abstract language, like ideas or discriptions.

    I suspect if you ask an S type for an Itinery, they will say take this train at such and such a time, for x numbers of stops and get off here... to get to Y desination for 3pm. The S type will give you layers of information, sometimes way too much

    N types would likely to say meet me at Y in the afternoon. N types may give too little information, or too abstract.


    Hope this helps
    What's bolded is what I mean. I understand the S vs N differences. I've seen what you wrote in bold before, and would like to know more about it. If someone has a good link they could provide, that would help me also.

    Thanks!

  4. #4
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    8,193

    Default

    SJs are concrete cooperators.

    SPs are concrete utilitarians.

    NFs are abstract cooperators.

    NTs are abstract utilitarians.



  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Could someone dumb these down for me?
    I am not good at dumbing things down, so I'll just give some information.

    Temperaments have a long history before Myers-Briggs. They are mainly based on observations of people in broad terms.

    It just so happens that there is a system of four temperaments that is compatible with the Myers-Briggs Types. This is a mix of Kiersey's work on temperaments and later work by others interested in Myers-Briggs.

    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Why are Sensors either SPs or SJs

    and

    Intuitives NFs or NTs?



    Why isn't it SP/SJ vs NP/NJ


    Or SF/ST vs NF/NT?



    Thanks.
    Researchers (Dario Nardi's group I believe), have done a correlatory study of the four temperaments with types, and they match pretty much to SPs being Artisans, SJs being Guardians, NTs being Rationals, and NFs being Idealists....there are new names for the temperaments (and more refined meanings for them) but I am still stuck on the old ones.

    SF/ST/NF/NT are called "mind types." This is another way of categorizing people.

    SP/SJ/NP/NJ determines how a person perceives information. Yet another way to categorize people.

    EJ/IJ/EP/IP works well for observing young children.

    (ENJ,EST),(INJ,IST),(ENP,ESF),(INP,ISF) define "Interaction Styles." Yet another interesting way to categorize people.

    IN,IS,EN,ES has implications for education and learning styles.

    Which set of categories you use depends on what you want to study.

    Temperaments are about needs, values, talents, and relationship preferences.

    Interaction styles are about drives, beliefs, communication, and how people influence others.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    What's bolded is what I mean. I understand the S vs N differences. I've seen what you wrote in bold before, and would like to know more about it. If someone has a good link they could provide, that would help me also.

    Thanks!
    EricB is your forum member for that.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  7. #7
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    What's bolded is what I mean. I understand the S vs N differences. I've seen what you wrote in bold before, and would like to know more about it. If someone has a good link they could provide, that would help me also.

    Thanks!
    OK I didn't know if that was what you really ment,

    I was chatting to Trintity about tempraments a few weeks back...

    SJ = Melancolic = Gaurdian = Earth
    SP = Sagnine = Artisan = Air
    NF = Choleric = Idealist = Fire elemnet
    NT = Phlegmatic = Rational =Water element

    If you are realy interested I will source the time they started being attributed as best I can. think around 340 BC

    Originally temprements came from from astrology classification, this was in the days when it wasn't a dirty word. It was a means of identifying the constitution of a person in order to treat them medically.
    I couldn't find clean links for Trinity.

    You need to be really careful, because they get badly applied in modern times. The discussion with Trinity was about NT's and NF's I beleive, she felt that Keirsey had labled them wrongly, I don't think he did.

    NF's idealists are not the emotional clouds they are made out to be in MBTI inerpretation, they are the emotives behind campagning, equality, feminisim etc... just give these guys a cause and they will go into bat for you. So rather than being purely emotional. If you need to think of NFs in emotional terms think shallower seas.....

    NT's however are phelgamtic, brooding, deep intuatives... ie they do things at a very deep rooted level, when they experience/express and emotion it is totalyl overwhelming, think about it in terms of rising up through an increadibly deep sea... so pretty much darker and more over powering. I've often tested the NT's around the issue, their idealisim about love and gently sought out if their emotions are just not on the surface and it seems to stack up to an extent.

    SJ = Melancolics = eather types, intro material stuff, process, rituals etc... which fits SJs pretty well. They want to be known for material stability.

    SP = Sangine = Air = sociable, easy light spirits, entertaining, comedic, quick minded... but in the light way not in a depth of the ocean type way...

    I'll see what I can dig up.

    I know from meeting severly translators of ancient text (part of the astrology communty - do translating so they can get their mits on real information from the ancients), that often information cna be lost through modern interpretation.

    In the ancient worls fixed people were considered to be "consistant", and mutable - as fickle, today we see them as stubborn and flexible respectively, so we have nearly reversed our valuing of the two types.

    I'm more likely to dig you up medical/astrology references rather than psycologically aplied versions (the bits I saw were very much the modern fluff about the subject). Not really sure that is what you are interested in - if its the psycologist view, then there would likely to be other people better suited. Personally I feel modern corruption looses momentum of what this stuff originally ment.

  8. #8
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    Ok a breif squint on this... lots of reading for you

    the rogue physician wrote one of the first medical books in English (mainyl on herbs)... a fair bit of that is about treating temprement type illnesses... (leaches and waht nott.... NICE!)

    Nicholas Culpeper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    inauthor:Nicholas inauthor:Culpeper - Google Books
    Nicholas Culpeper: Herbalist of the People, by Dylan Warren Davis

    Have a scout around here fore articles about temprement (often quoted from culpeper)... decumberature is the astrology of illness
    Skyscript: Astrological Articles


    Dorian may cover too much astrology in this one (I can translate if you want me to)
    Excerpts from Temperament: Astrology's Forgotten Key, by Dorian Gieseler Greenbaum,

    http://www.classicalastrology.org/forgottenkey.html

    This one is quite interesting (it confirms to me that Keirsey didn't screw up)
    http://www.classicalastrology.org/temperament.html

    http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/images/astrology.pdf

    This one cites the origin as babylon - they did wicked stuff there you know

    Temperament Analysis-Personality Typing - Christian or Psycho-Occult


    The Four Temperaments --- Astrology / Paganism

  9. #9
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    8,193

    Default

    I think it's NT and NF instead of NP and NJ simply because of how much more the judging function shapes the behavior and cognition of N types, whereas the direction of the sensing function is far more important in shaping the behavior of the S type. Ss have a far more pure, powerful method of experience and interpretation is concrete and literal while the Ns need to interpret their abstract thoughts and perceptions in some manner typically defined by the judging function. Basically, Ns need judging help to make sense of their environments, while Ss do not. This is something I've been mulling over, if anyone can point out any errors that'd be nice.

    I believe that's why the temperaments align the way they do.



  10. #10
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    1,557

    Default

    The temperaments are ultimately very arbitrary, you could easily group the types in all sorts of other ways.
    Hello

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 08-03-2016, 06:37 AM
  2. What IS the "logical framework and structure of the outside world?"
    By Retmeishka in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 02-03-2011, 01:13 PM
  3. What is the craziest bit of technology you have read about in SF?
    By macjoven in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-14-2009, 08:15 PM
  4. What is the nicest thing a stranger has ever done for you?
    By ladypinkington in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 07-30-2007, 11:42 PM
  5. What is the point of the MBTI?
    By Dufresne in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 05-31-2007, 04:37 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO