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  1. #31
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Always be wary of impirical research sources.... many of which are boilers.....


    As for Eric, Liked routly where you are going, but get confused by how many sstems you are chucking in. I totally get thaat there are cross referencing classifications (and partly how they were derived). I get cloudy becuase I know that many of these systems are bad interpretations of previous thinking - in reality someone had reinvented the wheel and trie dot call it something different.

  2. #32
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Sorry bout that, but that's basically the development of temperament as we know it today. There are basically two "strains". Follow from Galen to Kant, and then they split off. He added a perception scale, and from there you eventually get to Kretschmer and then Keirsey. Those who did not use perception and kept the humour names became the other brand of temperament theory, used largely in Christian circles (CatholicMatch/4 Marks, LaHaye/Littauer, APS). Interaction Stlyes is more aligned with the latter, and shows how the two branches come back together in the types.
    So it's really not so many different systems; just two, basically. (And I added in the five temperament theory now only because it explains why NF might not seem Phlegmatic).
    Last edited by Eric B; 02-06-2010 at 08:48 AM.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  3. #33
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    I found this link by accident today, it shows the overlap between a lot of different theory groups.

    personality styles, types, theories and psychometrics models, personality tests and quizzes theory

    I liked it because it doesn't try and swap Sanguine and Coleric around to suit MBTI discriptions

    Isabel Myers 1950s Galen c.190AD David Keirsey 1998
    SP sensing-perceiving sangine artisan
    SJ sensing-judging melancholic guardian
    NF intuitive-feeling choleric idealist
    NT intuitive-thinking phlegmatic rationalist


    It gives a really clearl line up across various ages.


    Enjoy!

    Lis

  4. #34
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I don't get "swap Sanguine and choleric around to suit MBTI descriptions". It does match them, and exactly the way Keirsey has it, with SP as Sanguine and NF as Choleric.

    Still, that's making the mistake of linking "enthusiastic-Choleric"/"calm-Phlegmatic". Cholerics may get enthusiastic, and Phlegmatics may appear calm, but there's more to the temperaments, and the type groups they're being compared to, than just that.
    Last edited by Eric B; 02-05-2010 at 08:25 PM.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  5. #35
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    yes I agree there is more to temprments than a 1 work descriptor. My point is that Kersey didn't screw the attributation up.

    NF = coleric, some folks argue it ought to be sanguine, I beleive Keirsey was right, for lots fo reason msot folks around here wouldn't be open too.

  6. #36
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I've never heard anyone say that NF is Sanguine. Everyone seems to agree that SP is Sanguine. Some others who arrange them differently will be Dave Kelly (P Types) who say NF is Melancholic and SJ is Phlegmatic (and NT is Choleric). And I have seen NF=Choleric, NT=Melancholic, SJ=Phlegmatic as well.

    Again the key is to realize there is [conative] temperament and there is Interaction Style ["affective" temperaments], and when people think of the "classic" temperaments, it is the affective ones they have in mind. That's where you get the "calm" phlegmatic (from being introverted and people-focused) and "enthusiastic" Choleric (from being extraverted and task-focused). Conation is a different area of behavior. Keirsey should have clarified this when he first came out with his temperaments (he apparently had readers objecting to NF not fitting "choleric"), but he probably did not completely factor out four affective groups yet. At some point, he split the temperaments into eight "intelligence" groups, marked by the last three letters, and yielding the role-directive/informative dimension. He now is mentioning "roles of interaction" that divide those by I/E, and are identical to the Interaction Styles. I'm not sure if this is new from him, or he did it before, and they just went unnoticed. Even if so, he probably did not match them to the Galen temperaments like he did with his conative groups. But that would have really cleared things up.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  7. #37
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Keirsey's book does map to Galen, aristotle and plato groupings....

    I've never heard NT's called melancolic... actually there are sevel systems of measurment to type people into old fashioned temprament... from you're readng how was this acheived

  8. #38
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Here's the one I mentioned.
    PTypes - The Four Temperaments

    And I'm sure when Keirsey mentioned Galen, it was only for his SP/SJ/NT/NF groups.
    Did he ever mention Galen and the others in the book for the IST/INJ, EST/ENJ, ISF/INP, ESF/ENP groups? He mentions these groups in his new book Brains and Careers I hear, but I'm not sure if he even goes into them in the PUM series most people are familiar with.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  9. #39
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Here's the one I mentioned.
    PTypes - The Four Temperaments

    And I'm sure when Keirsey mentioned Galen, it was only for his SP/SJ/NT/NF groups.
    Did he ever mention Galen and the others in the book for the IST/INJ, EST/ENJ, ISF/INP, ESF/ENP groups? He mentions these groups in his new book Brains and Careers I hear, but I'm not sure if he even goes into them in the PUM series most people are familiar with.

    I am not typing the whole list but it wasn't the link you posted. I'll dig out the book when I can find it (doens't seem to be where it ought to be).

    Keirsey:
    Gardian = SJ = Melcanolic (earth = makes sense for SJ)
    Artisan = SP = Sanguine (Air = light enetertaining make reasonable sense - air it not my favourite element)
    Idealist = NF = Choleric (Fire = campaigning, quite egocentric, loud, attention seeking, about promoting causes)
    Rationalists = NTs = Phelegmatic (water = deep emotional, empathetic, intuative, sifts information to an intuative responce, very calm, can be scary calm)

    the brackets I've added in a bit... will find the book and write a few bits up...

  10. #40
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    this is closer to the table in the book

    Keirsey/MBTI reference artisan/SP sensing-perceiving guardian/SJ sensing-judging idealist/NF intuitive-feeling rationalist/NT intuitive-thinking
    Ezekiel 590BC lion ox man eagle
    Empedocles 450BC Goea (air) Hera (earth) Zeus (fire) Poseidon (water)
    The Seasons Spring Autumn Summer Winter
    Signs of Zodiac Libra, Aquarius, Gemini Capricorn, Taurus, Virgo Aries, Leo, Sagittarius Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces
    Hippocrates 370BC blood black bile yellow bile phlegm
    Hippocrates 370BC 'Four Qualities' hot and moist cold and dry hot and dry cold and moist
    Plato 340BC (M) artistic sensible intuitive reasoning
    Aristotle 325BC 'contribution to social order' (K) 'iconic'- artistic and art-making 'pistic' - common-sense and care-taking 'noetic' - intuitive sensibility and morality 'dianoetic' - reasoning and logical investigator
    Aristotle 325BC Four Sources of Happiness (K) 'hedone' - sensual pleasure 'propraieteri' - acquiring assets 'ethikos' - moral virtue 'dialogike' - logical investigation
    Galen 190AD Four Temperaments or Four Humours sanguine melancholic choleric phlegmatic
    Paracelsus 1550 'Four Totem Spirits' (K) Salamanders - impulsive and changeable Gnomes - industrious and guarded Nymph - inspiring and passionate Sylphs - curious and calm
    Eric Adickes 1905 Four World Views (K) innovative traditional doctrinaire sceptical
    Eduard Spranger 1914 Four Value Attitudes (K) artistic economic religious theoretic
    Ernst Kretschmer 1920 (M) manic depressive oversensitive insensitive
    Eric Fromm 1947 (K) exploitative hoarding receptive marketing
    Hans Eysenck 1950s (trait examples from his inventory) lively, talkative, carefree, outgoing sober, reserved, quiet, rigid restless, excitable, optimistic, impulsive careful, controlled, thoughtful, reliable
    Myers 1958 (M) perceiving judging feeling thinking
    Myers 1958 (K) probing scheduling friendly tough-minded
    Montgomery 2002 on Jung/Myers SP - spontaneous and playful SJ - sensible and judicious NF - intuitive and fervent NT - ingenious and theoretical
    Montgomery 2002 on Keirsey's Four Temperaments says what is,
    does what works says what is,
    does what's right says what's possible,
    does what's right says what's possible,
    does what works

    Its the table below the paragraph under the title
    overview history of the four temperaments - or four humours

    personality styles, types, theories and psychometrics models, personality tests and quizzes theory

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