User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 47

  1. #11
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,438

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    EricB is your forum member for that.
    Thanks!

    Anyway, the basic connection was covered above. To be more precise, Keirsey traced the temperaments through Ernst Kretschmer's Character Styles, which were divided into Cyclothymes: Hypomanic, Depressive, and Schizothymes: Anesthetic, Hyperesthetic. Cyclothymes would be Sensors and Schizothymes would be iNtuitive, and the four styles fit the asymmetrical S+J/P--N+T/F groups.
    The Interaction Styles also fit the ancient temperaments, through another asymmetrical grouping: E/I +S+T/F; N+J/P.

    The reason why, is that temperaments were not originally defined by perceptive (S/N) scales (Kant basically laid the foundation for that), but rather a pair of factors known as expressiveness and people/task focus. E/I fits the first one (for the Interaction Styles), and people/task is tied to T/F and J/P, but are sort of twisted by the new S/N factor.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  2. #12
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    I think they are grouped by observed similarities in those types, particularly the general attitudes they exhibit and their main motivations.

    This doesn't mean that someone of one type never exhibits traits associated with a different temperament - it's categorizing people based on overall patterns of behavior and expressed motivations.

    For instance, I see more consistency among NFs than NPs, which makes the NF grouping make more sense to me.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #13
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    There is a thread I'm developing, and this thread makes me itch to finish it really fast.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  4. #14
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Uhh guys, he didn't ask for fifteen pages of information about each temperament.

    He just asked what led to Keirsey to decide that P/J is more important for S types and that T/F is more important for N types.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #15
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    The answer is already there. Keirsey made a different system that removed the most fundamental part of the MBTI (the cognitive processes) but was at least nominally builty off of the MB archetypes. He basically threw out the parts but kept the chassis.

    The reason Keirsey grouped them as he did is because he felt his particular groupings did the best job of dividing people along four types of behavior most similar to the divisions of the temperaments of old. If you're familiar with the humors, Sanguine, Phlegmatic, Melancholic, and Choleric, then you know what those temperaments are. If you aren't familiar with them, look them up! Basically, there was a long tradition of temperament systems going back to that one, and Keirsey aimed to fit in with it.

    As for how Keirsey decided which groupings most behaviorally fit the old temperaments, his method was one of dubious (as far as I'm concerned) empericism and experiential knowledge, which struck me as far too anecdotal. Never the less, personal observation of type behavior was how he picked them out.

    So there you go, the OP is answered.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  6. #16
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Uhh guys, he didn't ask for fifteen pages of information about each temperament.

    He just asked what led to Keirsey to decide that P/J is more important for S types and that T/F is more important for N types.
    Actually the OPer didn't, he has been unspecfic about what he means by temprement, definately didn't say Keirsey...

    When asked they clarifided it wasn't the MBTI letters tehy were interested in.

    So the big question is is it Kersey's takes on the Temraments = Idealist, Rationalist, Garudian, or Artisan

    Or Anticent temprements (which map onto the lot anyways)... towhich you can argue origin, but certainly from around 450 BC (bablyonians, Greeks etc...lots of different citations).

  7. #17
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Actually the OPer didn't, he has been unspecfic about what he means by temprement, definately didn't say Keirsey...

    When asked they clarifided it wasn't the MBTI letters tehy were interested in.

    So the big question is is it Kersey's takes on the Temraments = Idealist, Rationalist, Garudian, or Artisan

    Or Anticent temprements (which map onto the lot anyways)... towhich you can argue origin, but certainly from around 450 BC (bablyonians, Greeks etc...lots of different citations).
    Association with Keirsey was implied because he asked what the reasoning behind the NT/NF/SP/SJ temperament arrangement (which was designed by Keirsey) is. durrrrr
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #18
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post

    As for how Keirsey decided which groupings most behaviorally fit the old temperaments, his method was one of dubious (as far as I'm concerned) empericism and experiential knowledge, which struck me as far too anecdotal. Never the less, personal observation of type behavior was how he picked them out.

    So there you go, the OP is answered.
    It might not be QUITE as dubious as it appears (can't say how he did it cos I never met him), but the fit between his lableing/grouping and ancient system isn't as bad as it appears. Some of the issues are around how we interpret language today v's ancients. There are reasons that it is as Keirsey has it...

  9. #19
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Association with Keirsey was implied because he asked what the reasoning behind the NT/NF/SP/SJ temperament arrangement (which was designed by Keirsey) is. durrrrr
    Sorry read their second post, it is more specific (wasn't haivng a go at you)... and I agree the first post was very much NT.SJ etc,

  10. #20
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    It might not be QUITE as dubious as it appears (can't say how he did it cos I never met him), but the fit between his lableing/grouping and ancient system isn't as bad as it appears. Some of the issues are around how we interpret language today v's ancients. There are reasons that it is as Keirsey has it...
    I think I could make a viable fit for the old temeperaments based on other groupsings too. I could probaby fit any quartering into some relative humor claffications fairly easily (and be more consistent about it, too ), maybe the outer letters, for example. I have a hard time seeing ENTJs as phlegmatic or ESTJs as melancholic. But those type orientations make sense in Keirsey's sytem because he hammered the whole system around the need for it to make sense. It's correct by redefinition. It's one of those (many) things I don't like about Keirsey. I prefer dissecting things down into the functional parts, and seeing what patterns, frameworks, and categories logically manifest themselves from there. Keirsey seemed to do things in the reverse process, making the patterns, frameworks, and categories, and then jamming the parts in until they fit.

    Even if his choice of groups did reflect the temperaments the best, is that worth anything?

    Keirsey, in his own system, considers himself and INTP. Well his system of course is quite different from mine more orthodox cognitive approach. After really going over his work several times, I'm thinking he's an ISTJ.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 08-03-2016, 06:37 AM
  2. What IS the "logical framework and structure of the outside world?"
    By Retmeishka in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 02-03-2011, 01:13 PM
  3. What is the craziest bit of technology you have read about in SF?
    By macjoven in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-14-2009, 08:15 PM
  4. What is the nicest thing a stranger has ever done for you?
    By ladypinkington in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 07-30-2007, 11:42 PM
  5. What is the point of the MBTI?
    By Dufresne in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 05-31-2007, 04:37 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO