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  1. #1
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Default Strict separation between introverted and extraverted versions of the same function?

    I think this approach seems counter-intuitive. I'll use Ti-Te as my example, because, well it's the one I feel most comfortable with.

    I've been thinking about this quite a lot recently, because I don't find I identify with the standard "INTP" character, and in fact have realized I much prefer INTJ forums to INTP forums, as they are more grounded in reality, respectful, and constructive in terms of conversation, rather than dominated by unhealthy repressed emotions and narcissism.

    At the same time, I don't like the function descriptions of Ni and Te. Firstly, I'm a materialist philosophically, so the idea of some "premonition" or "mystic" state from where we "just know" the truth, I find to be metaphysical bullshit, the worst kind of hateful, backwards obscurantism. Likewise, I'm really not that organized or linear in my thinking.

    As for Ti-Te, surely, Te is just applied Ti? The idea that a Ti-dominant person or a Te dominant person wouldn't even posses the intro/extra versions of that function, is jsut fucking bizzarre. Look at the actual descriptions for the two functions? How on earth could someone with strong Ti not have a lot of Te, and vice-versa? I mean, I use Ti, and then when sure of something, I use Te. I've found myself using Te a lot recently. Also I guess that "sureness" equates with an internalization of Ne into Ni. And it's permanently switchable, it seems to me. Ne gives you ability to grasp a theory and play with it, and Ni comes when you consolidated it into a whole, relatively consolidated vision, which you then implement with Te.

    It seems to me that the very compartmentalized ideas that INTP/INTJ don't have Te/Ti-Ni/Ne, are just sloppy ideas, and ultiumately just end up getting used by people on forums who want to make excuses for either lack of application of their ideas, or for lack of flexibility of their ideas, and that a normal person has all of these tendencies (though not in equal amounts), while a healthy person should aspire to balancing them well and effectively.

    Any thoughts?
    Last edited by Bellflower; 01-28-2010 at 01:10 AM. Reason: fixed title typo
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  2. #2
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    At the same time, I don't like the function descriptions of Ni and Te. Firstly, I'm a materialist philosophically, so the idea of some "premonition" or "mystic" state from where we "just know" the truth, I find to be metaphysical bullshit, the worst kind of hateful, backwards obscurantism.
    Well, ummm... You should read Lenore Thomson's work. She gives a solid, amystical explanation of what Ni is that I find much more digestable.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    As for Ti-Te, surely, Te is just applied Ti? The idea that a Ti-dominant person or a Te dominant person wouldn't even posses the intro/extra versions of that function, is jsut fucking bizzarre. Look at the actual descriptions for the two functions? How on earth could someone with strong Ti not have a lot of Te, and vice-versa? I mean, I use Ti, and then when sure of something, I use Te. I've found myself using Te a lot recently. Also I guess that "sureness" equates with an internalization of Ne into Ni. And it's permanently switchable, it seems to me. Ne gives you ability to grasp a theory and play with it, and Ni comes when you consolidated it into a whole, relatively consolidated vision, which you then implement with Te.

    It seems to me that the very compartmentalized ideas that INTP/INTJ don't have Te/Ti-Ni/Ne, are just sloppy ideas, and ultiumately just end up getting used by people on forums who want to make excuses for either lack of application of their ideas, or for lack of flexibility of their ideas, and that a normal person has all of these tendencies (though not in equal amounts), while a healthy person should aspire to balancing them well and effectively.

    Any thoughts?
    My main thought is, Te and Ti are definitively not merely applied and unapplied versions of the same thing.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #3
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, ummm... You should read Lenore Thomson's work. She gives a solid, amystical explanation of what Ni is that I find much more digestable.
    Hmm...I've heard of her but not read that. Is it online?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #4
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Hmm...I've heard of her but not read that. Is it online?
    To tell you the truth, I bought the book. I admit I have not done a very thorough search, but up to now I am both surprised and regretful to say that I have not found her work comprehensively online.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #5
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    ok, well, thanks for the recommendation. Is this the book you bought?:

    What's New In Type and Temperament
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  6. #6
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    I'm gonna steal a couple of quotes from Lenore's book to illustrate the differences:

    For example, if we were building a bookcase:

    Extraverted Thinking would prompt us to reason with causal logic; to make sure we understand the instruction manual and the predictable consequences of following the steps.

    Introverted Thinking would prompt us to reason with situational logic; to deal with immediate variables as they happen. Perhaps the holes in the second shelf don't line up with the holes in the groove it's supposed to occupy. Our step by step instructions don't cover this possibility, so we have to consider our options and their probably effects on the whole project.

    Extraverted Feeling would encourage us to judge the finished bookcase in terms of general social expectations. For example, we might page through books and magazines about interior design, trying to determine whether this particular bookcase would look "right" in the living room.

    Introverted Feeling would prompt us to make the bookcase our own - that is, to give it a place among the things that matter to us. Maybe we'll use it for the books we love best. Maybe we'll put our collection of miniatures on the top shelf. We'll try something, change it, try something else, until the elements come into harmony for us and we're happy with the arrangement.
    For example, if we were spending a day at the beach:

    Extraverted Sensation would prompt us to go with our sense impressions as they occured; to lie in the sun, play in the surf, listen to the gulls piping overhead.

    Introverted Sensation would move us to stabilize our sense impressions by integrating them with facts we knew to be consistent. We might bring our favourite book, a snorkel and flippers, a bag of snacks, extra towels because someone will probably forget one, and a watch to make sure we beat the traffic home.

    Extraverted Intuition would move us to unify our sense impressions with their larger context, thereby creating new options for meaning and response. For example, as we lie on our blanket in the sun, perhaps we hear music in the distance. Someone passing by mentions a great restaurant in town. Suddenly we're thinking: Hey, there must be an amusement park nearby. If it's on our way to town, we can check out the rides before we look for the restaurant that passerby was talking about. In fact, maybe the guy knows about other places we should consider. Where did he go?

    Introverted Intuition would prompt us to liberate our sense impressions from their larger context, thereby creating new options for perception itself. For example, we might find ourselves wondering why people feel so strongly about getting a good tan. We remember reading somewhere that before the Industrial Revolution, being tanned marked one as a manual laborer, because it suggested work out of doors. After the Industrial Revolution, it was pale skin that suggested manual labor, because it indicated work in a poorly lit factory. Such correlations aren't relevant today, but a good tan is still considered attractive. Why is that? We consider raising the question as a topic of conversation, but we're pretty sure our friends will think we're observing a situation instead of enjoying it.
    And yes, you absolutely should buy her book. Here's a preview:

    Personality type: an owner's manual - Google Books
    Hello

  7. #7
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Yes, that's the book.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #8
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    I'm gonna steal a couple of quotes from Lenore's book to illustrate the differences:





    And yes, you absolutely should buy her book. Here's a preview:

    Personality type: an owner's manual - Google Books
    DUDE OMG I GET IT!!!!!!!!!! *hears mental clicks in brain*

    I now understand the difference.

    OMG I love you, thanks. (Well, no I don't love you, but I'm really happy you shared that).
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Bri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    I'm gonna steal a couple of quotes from Lenore's book to illustrate the differences:





    And yes, you absolutely should buy her book. Here's a preview:

    Personality type: an owner's manual - Google Books
    Sooo... is it the order we go through those things that matters? Because all of them seem like plausible things I'd do/think on any given day. Is it the order, the one I do first, second, etc. most often, that determines type?

  10. #10
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Jeez and I always thought Ni was some weird voodoo crap. Now I realize that I'm Ni-ing, Ne-ing, Fe-ing and Si-ing my way through the world with a great deal of Te-ing, some Fi-ing, some Se-ing and definitely no freaking Ti-ing.

    (In my brain, that sounds weird like, "I'm knighting, kneeing, feeling, and sighing my way through the world with a great deal of teething, some fighting, some seeing, and no tying.")

    That's going to be my new signature.

    And that was Ne-ing.

    Right?
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

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