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  1. #21
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    I dont think naturally one person will have both Xi and Xe.

    However I think you can develop some Xe-let's use Fe as an example, is you are an Xi-Fi user.

    In this case for me, a mindest of compassionate detachment allows me to disconnect my Fi from my surroundings adn take on a more Fe feel. Is its Fe? Not like the Fe I felt when I cheated to get to Fe...that was living in another mind.

    However it gives a surface veneer that appears Fe-like and enables me to function productively in an Fe dominant group.

    I have been chatting with the entps about this as well-Ni/Ne and Ti/Te as well as Fi/Fe.

    Jung proposed a "transcendant function" where the dominant function is balanced by development of the introverted aspect of it. Thus balance Ne with Ni? I dunno though...

  2. #22
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, Thomson does lay out a particular assigned order of the processes. I will say that I break with pretty much all of the literature on the cognitive types in that I've been mostly unimpressed with the reasoning about the processes beyond the auxiliary, so as of now, I define types by the dominant and auxiliary procces (the primary pair) and assume that the other processes may fall in any particular arrangement, and differs among people of the same type.
    agreed.

    Plus, I'm pretty sure I use the extraverted and introverted form of my dom and aux functions of N and F more than T and S, hence my sig. I know I use Ne more than Se, for example, although function theory would suggest otherwise. And although I'm an Fe user, I use Fi pretty well too. Studying the functions and how much you call each one up and use it is interesting stuff.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    I'm gonna steal a couple of quotes from Lenore's book to illustrate the differences:





    And yes, you absolutely should buy her book. Here's a preview:

    Personality type: an owner's manual - Google Books
    While those make sense, we Fe on people different then we Fe on objects. How do I translate your Fe on that bookcase in regards to how we use Fe with people who actually respond. Fe takes on a whole different feel because you open up your ego to interaction from others.
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #24
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    While those make sense, we Fe on people different then we Fe on objects. How do I translate your Fe on that bookcase in regards to how we use Fe with people who actually respond. Fe takes on a whole different feel because you open up your ego to interaction from others.
    I think the point being made in that quote is that, when making decisions with Fe, the terms are "What would other people think about this design? What designs do other people recommend would look good?". The focus is still on what other people think, and you're still orienting via general social expectations.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    I think the point being made in that quote is that, when making decisions with Fe, the terms are "What would other people think about this design? What designs do other people recommend would look good?". The focus is still on what other people think, and you're still orienting via general social expectations.
    "What would other people think about this design?" - I tend to struggle because that single question defines the whole process starting with Se-leading into Ti and Ni and ultimately Fe. I dont see this as Fe, but a process with a result of Fe.

    "What designs do other people recommend would look good?" - I see this as Te feeding into Ni and then Fe can make a judgement. Different process resulting in Fe.

    Thanks your questions helped me seperate it out more. It helps me understand, what I see though is the first question opens up ego to be hurt more then the second question. I can see an inferior Fe more in the second question and an dominant Fe more in regards to the first question.

    But then what confuses me is that if the first question would be what an inferior Fe would ask hoping for some Te and the second question asked by a person would be digging into their Ti. Which yeilds opposite results.

    Ok, now are your questions in internal questions or an external questions?
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #26
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    You're reading too much into it, I think. The point is that those questions are asking what other people think is good - "how will this affect my relationship with others? If I do what other people think is good, I'll stay in their favour. If I ask someone I don't like what they think, I'll do the opposite. Maybe I'll consult a design magazine to see what the general consensus is.". That's the point being made.
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  7. #27
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    The problem is that you're seeing the functions as tools in a toolbag, to be utilised when needed, when they're not - they're conceptual standpoints that seek to illustrate natural, instinctive behaviour.

    ...

    It's probably tough to see this because, like I say, you're looking at the functions as discrete tools that people just pick up and use, when they're supposed to be looked at as a whole - a set of interoperating variables that operate on certain rules, in order to illustrate the way people think, behave and react to the world.
    Can I ask for clarification as I'm not sure I understand this: what do you meanwhen you say that a function is "conceptual standpoint that seeks to illustrate natural, instinctive behaviour" and not a "set of tools"/

    Does this mean that a "cognitive function" is actually an external imposition on reality to gve a name to a phenomenon which can't be understood in its entirety, and is to an extent an arbitrary classification, and not something actually existing within the brain? Or did I misunderstand...?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

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  8. #28
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Can I ask for clarification as I'm not sure I understand this: what do you meanwhen you say that a function is "conceptual standpoint that seeks to illustrate natural, instinctive behaviour" and not a "set of tools"/

    Does this mean that a "cognitive function" is actually an external imposition on reality to gve a name to a phenomenon which can't be understood in its entirety, and is to an extent an arbitrary classification, and not something actually existing within the brain? Or did I misunderstand...?
    They're definitely not illustrative of any genuine, empirically-measured mechanics of the brain - they're illustrations of the way different people process, perceive and ultimately behave in the world - developed based on observation, introspection and interviews by Carl Jung. The functions are a wholly subjective understanding of other people, developed by one person in his own head.

    NPs don't make a conscious decision to "use" Extraverted Intuition like it was a tool - it's a process that emerges naturally out of interaction with the world. Ne is just a reflection of how NPs "see" the world - "everything is connected". Similarly, TPs don't make a concscious decision to "use" Introverted Thinking like it was a tool - it's a process that emerges naturally through introspection. The Tertiary Function is just an illustration of the way people "take the easy way out" or "make excuses", the Inferior function illustrates what stands against the ego (and the central conflict of a person's self-identity), and the Dominant Function illustrates the ego - the apex of that person's self-identity.

    I'm also slowly starting to think that people who say they're using any of the other functions are really just using one of their "default" four functions - e.g. an ESFP might describe themselves as "using" Fe, when all they're doing is being nice to someone else by shaking their hand and saying "hello". This easily could have been learned and rationalised through the lenses of Extraverted Thinking or Introverted Feeling. They think they're "using " Fe because they've been taught that shaking someone's hand, being nice to other people etc. is Fe. We're drilled to be nice, upstanding, cookie-cutter citizens almost from birth (some take to it more easily than others) and the only way we can rationalise how we're "supposed" to behave is through the lenses that we see the world through. Extraverted Thinkers say "hello" and shake hands because it establishes a relationship of trust, ensuring a predictable relationship that can be relied upon to not break apart (and also to avoid the wrath of more socially-tuned individuals; "I should say hello, otherwise this person will think I'm cold and distant - It would be easier to get them to do what I want if they didn't think that").

    Extraverted Feelers don't have the same (cynical?) motives, because their focus is on emotional relationships, and they want to define and maintain the social vocabulary that enables them. So they don't say "hello" to avoid someone's wrath, they do it because they want to be friendly for the sake of it, and that's how you're supposed to be friendly.

    I should also probably mention that some of this is my subjecting understanding, developed in my head. Feel free to dismiss this if it doesn't match up to your own understanding of things.
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  9. #29
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    NPs don't make a conscious decision to "use" Extraverted Intuition like it was a tool - it's a process that emerges naturally out of interaction with the world. Ne is just a reflection of how NPs "see" the world - "everything is connected". Similarly, TPs don't make a concscious decision to "use" Introverted Thinking like it was a tool - it's a process that emerges naturally through introspection. The Tertiary Function is just an illustration of the way people "take the easy way out" or "make excuses", the Inferior function illustrates what stands against the ego (and the central conflict of a person's self-identity), and the Dominant Function illustrates the ego - the apex of that person's self-identity.
    </Reflects>

    I can see what you mean that the fucntions aren't a conscious tool. I don't know if the argument hinges on that though, I mean when I made this OP I didn't think they were ncessarilly "conscious" I just htought they arise out of the needs of life and consciousness.

    The idea of it being a reflection of how you "see the world" seems almost like you're rejectign the diea of "functions" though...surely the logical conclusion of this view is a more "Enneagram-style" approach than an approach based on Cognitive funcitons. I always thought the whole idea of functions theory was that behaviour can be broken down into specific, well, functions () which you can describe empirically as "mechanics of the brain". Otherwise it doesn't seem to make much sense to tlak of functions at all.

    I like this idea though:

    the Inferior function illustrates what stands against the ego (and the central conflict of a person's self-identity), and the Dominant Function illustrates the ego - the apex of that person's self-identity
    It's very dialectical...not sure if you have read any Marx and Engels, but it ties well with the "unity of opposites"and "negation of the negation" - youu're perhaps a dialectician who doesn't know it. That's a compliment btw.

    I will make a constructive criticism of your method though (not of your understanding of MBTI itself as I don't claim to know as much as you): I think there is one dialectical rule which might help you: "quantity into quality". think about itnegrating that into your analysis in order to ground it more in the "parts" i.e. the functions (at the moment you are almost reducing everything to being determined solely by the "whole i.e. personality, when maybe an understanding of the dialectical interaction between the two is necessarry).

    EDIT: how unfortunate that "Functions" initially came out as "cuntions"! Makes me think of Curb Your Enthusiasm.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  10. #30
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    The idea of it being a reflection of how you "see the world" seems almost like you're rejectign the diea of "functions" though...surely the logical conclusion of this view is a more "Enneagram-style" approach than an approach based on Cognitive funcitons. I always thought the whole idea of functions theory was that behaviour can be broken down into specific, well, functions () which you can describe empirically as "mechanics of the brain". Otherwise it doesn't seem to make much sense to tlak of functions at all.
    Admittedly, the language I use is inspired mainly by Lenore Thomson (an INTJ) who describes the functions as warring perspectives. I'm able to relate very easily to the assumptions she makes and the illustrations she uses.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    It's very dialectical...not sure if you have read any Marx and Engels, but it ties well with the "unity of opposites"and "negation of the negation" - youu're perhaps a dialectician who doesn't know it. That's a compliment btw.
    Haha, I've read plenty of Marx and Engels, but that was a very long time ago - I wonder if they had any effect on my mind.
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