Public Service Announcement to Paranoid Fi doms

[neptunesnet]

I had been putting off going through this thread. I just read it now in its entirety. *collapses into a heap*

One of your major gripes, SW, seems to be that INFPs are oversensitive and have read too much into what you are saying. You may not have consciously intended your words to be interpreted as attacks but they have collectively been so. Allow me to respond:

1. I, and many other INFPs here, saw your comments about 'paranoid Fi doms' as a veiled attack on Fi-doms in general. As much as you have denied this, your negative comments about Fi throughout the thread have only sort to confirm and justify this inference. How unfair is it then, that you should continually accuse us of being hysterical and oversensitive when we attempt to defend ourselves?

2. Fi is the most difficult to understand of the cognitive functions. It is so because it is concerned with the 'essence' of things - something unmeasurable and undefinable. I can appreciate your frustration with Fi but you must try and give it the benefit of the doubt - make the effort to see where we are coming from. You started this thread in reaction to some (rather unnecessary) comments made about the evils of MBTI. Surely, as a defender of MBTI you can appreciate that, if anything, MBTI is about learning about how different types think in order to better understand and accept their behaviour. Maybe you need to keep this in mind more. I would rather that you asked real questions about the reasons behind our behaviour, than, essentially, complaining about the fact we are not more ENTP INFJ-like. We can't help this.

3. You look at our decisions and see no rhyme or reason but I assure you that, despite making based on feelings, there is a kind of logic to it. It might not makes sense to you in the way Ti or Te does because we use different methodologies. I hate to reference myself (ugh) but I made an explaination of this on another thread.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/fluff-zone/20492-signs-you-have-lousy-fi-8.html#post942563

You earlier mentioned an example:

I interpreted your friends advice completely differently. I don't think that he meant that your way of thinking is wrong. I think what he meant was that sometimes you just can't argue with some people - they are going to believe what they want, even if it seems stupid and unreasonable to you. I also hate it when people have stupid and unreasonable beliefs, but sometimes you just have to let it go, and put up with it. It seems like you friend was trying to help you to deal more diplomatically with others that are different to yourself, and not attempting to undermine your character. And believe me, if anyone is going to understand your individual needs, its an Fi user.

Perfect, except for the bolded.

I think that's his only gripe.

 

[Thalassa]

Perfect, except for the bolded.

I think that's his only gripe.

Insightful you are.

 

[Venom]

I'm beginning to think there's something wrong with you.

tertiary Fe functions are often so weak, that they are basically shadow functions ......

 

[simulatedworld]

I think part of that is because INFJs are Fe/Ti types, so they're way way way better at reading other Fe/Ti types than INFPs are.

INFPs can probably read NTJs and other Fi/Te types better than INFJs can, but sometimes they seem to think they can read everyone that well, and it's annoying to continually field a bunch of blatantly inaccurate assessments of my emotions.

INFJs, on the other hand, often know what I'm feeling better than I do.

 

[Amargith]

So enjoy your INFJs already and stop crusading against INFPs. I'm the first to admit that it's harder to read FeTi people. Still, it's a nice challenge
I use it to hone my skills. And yeah, I got it wrong a lot, and still do at times coz it's a lot harder. It takes conscious shifting of perception I've found. Whereas with NTJs I don't even have to think about that, most of the time. It just naturally flows.

Also, we might have admitted to being oversensitive at times, but you seem to toss out the reasons for that which I've stated repeatedly out the door and go 'See, they admit it! I'm right, they suck at the very thing they claim to be good at!!!'
Sorry, it doesn't work like that. Every skill can be practised poorly or perform badly under certain circumstances. That doesn't however invalidate that very skill when used appropriately. Do yourself a favor and stop getting overly annoyed at the times it doesn't get applied just right. You're going to give yourself high bloodpressure or something if you keep that up

Also, that standard is just unfair. It's not like your Ti is infallible and the double standard is just...yeah. And btw, there's no convincing you of you being wrong then either, especially if you're already defensive or passionate about the subject. So don't even. And then there's still the argument that Ti is way more easy to word and explain than Fi is. I appreciate the frustration you have for not being able to quantify and take Fi apart. You'll need to use other tools to figure it out. Empirical try-outs. Start with talking to a Fi-user one on one, with all the 4 prerequisites fulfilled. And go from there. You might just discover another world...

 

[Space_Oddity]

Simulatedworld,

I'm not sure if this contribution will be valuable for you but I'll try to be as honest as possible and hope it will maybe bring more understanding between you and Fi-doms.

Of course you have a point that Fi-doms, especially INFPs, are oversensitive by most Thinkers' standards. I admit I am. My INTJ mum has always called me oversensitive when I came to her for advice and a bit of compassion (which I never got -_-;;; ), so I'm pretty much used to it, although I still can't help thinking she's just never really understood. Maybe it's similar for you? People calling you insensitive, when in fact they just don't get you? I know it sucks, believe me. You stated that you think it's unfair that people get away with being oversensitive, but they don't get away with being insensitive. But I, for once, have never got away with being oversensitive - that's why I've learned to reveal what I truly feel mostly only in half-serious, self-deprecating way, if ever.

An INTP who I was best friends with for 3 years was the best teacher for me in this, because she didn't get what I feel at all, and I didn't want to "bother" her with my emotions and just enjoy the Ne connection. And I admit I didn't understand her at all either. I thought I did, but in fact I wasn't really able to put myself in her shoes. This finally led to the end of our friendship and my boundless misery, so I know that the clash you're talking about really exists and it's not funny.

Also, you're accusing Fi-users of "selfishness" - that holds true too, because I was incredibly selfish in my relationship with her. But alas, at that time I didn't realize I was selfish at all. It took my ESTJ boyfriend to seriously reproach me for this much later for me to realize what was really the problem back then. I seriously didn't know, because no one told me. I really thought that my feelings were the most important thing on earth, and I thought it would be right if the world worked according to what I felt was right. But I was wrong, and my attitude was immature and inconsiderate. I though I knew what was best for the friend - but in the end, my actions brought only pain to her, and to me as well.

Perhaps it is equally wrong of NTPs to expect the world will work according to what they think is right, though. I've had two INTP teachers who approach their students with this logic, and although they definitely believe they know what's best for their students, I think it's a mistake that don't take their feelings into equation at all. In other words, they have no mercy. This is what I personally associate with Ti - lack of mercy. (This goes especially for INTPs - I haven't noticed this inclination in the ENTPs I know IRL.) I think that Fi-dom might end up showing lack of mercy as well, but the difference is, if you explicitly tell Fi-dom that they hurt you and why, they will probably feel ashamed and try to correct their ways. INTP will explain you why they hurt you, and they'll think it's justified.

It's the same with you and your abrasive posting style - I admit it really hurts me when people treat me in a hostile, offensive way, no matter if it's IRL or on the internet. I'm oversensitive like this, you know. Then you explain why you behave like that and think it's all fair and square - but the logic of it doesn't make it less offensive or hurtful. I don't care one bit if you're going to make friends on this board or not, I just personally don't like to be offended and I think it's very impolite (especially because you certainly wouldn't act like that towards me IRL; either it wouldn't even cross your mind, or you're really an ESFJ). These are my feelings; don't they matter?

I agree that sometimes it's a hard battle between Fi and Ti. It's frustrating and disappointing, because the Ne connection feels so great, but suddenly you realize you don't understand the other one half as much as you believed. Also, no matter what effort you put into understanding, there will always be areas you simply won't agree on. But ranting against INFP nature on the internet won't bring you anywhere. I could start a rant thread where I'd complain against the cold insensitivity of INTPs, but that wouldn't bring me anywhere either, and it certainly wouldn't change them. The "oversensitivity" of INFPs is a fact - you either have to get used to it or not associate with them. However, the selfishness is something that can be overcome if you point it out to people. Perhaps you should start with this, and see how they react.

 

[MacGuffin]

Honestly if you guys think I'm that bad you should see INTP central; that place is like me on crack. It's too abrasive even for me to enjoy it, and that's really saying something.

INTP Central: we snack on Fi-doms, then kill a bunch of kittens for sport.™

 

[Jaguar]

INTP Central: we snack on Fi-doms, then kill a bunch of kittens for sport.™

Ridding the world of INTPs is simple.
Post these three words: JUST MY OPINION.

Their brain will begin to hemorrhage typing a 40-page response.

 

[JocktheMotie]

Ridding the world of INTPs is simple.
Post these three words: JUST MY OPINION.

Their brain will begin to hemorrhage typing a 40-page response.

Make the hug-and-kiss greeting a global standard of expected behavior and you'd have a better result. We'd go underground and evolve into cave people.

 

[Laurie]

Make the hug-and-kiss greeting a global standard of expected behavior and you'd have a better result. We'd go underground and evolve into cave people.

I thought you were.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

INTP Central: we snack on Fi-doms, then kill a bunch of kittens for sport.™

Maybe it's time to move up on the food chain.

 

[Poki]

To give you a heads up on Ji in general. Both are very personal and both are subjective. This makes it very hard to explain unless you are in our shoes and honestly it gets slammed alot, both Ti and Fi. This is my biggest issue is that I make every decision based on an internal subjective view of the world and it screws up alot. Ti more so in regards to feelings and Fi more so in regards to logic. To work with us you MUST have an open mind to listen, to understand, to correct, and to work with. We need perception so we can make our own subjective decisions.

With Fi you must watch and protect its Te, with Ti you must watch and protect its Fe. With an EP type, their Fe and Te is how they protect themselves so you must back down instead of fighting it when it becomes defensive. With inferior Fe and Te its like a child that you must care for and teach. This applies to inferior Fi and Ti as well.

Sim, One key piece of advice when dealing with people. ONLY criticize or make fun of what you accept in them. Understand what you dont accept instead of trying to blame, criticize, fight, etc. If you hit a sensitive spot, protect it, accept it. Once you learn how to do that you can then push them over the edge and in the same breath catch them as they fall.

sub·jec·tive (səb-jěk'tĭv)
adj. 1.
a.Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world: a subjective decision.

b.Particular to a given person; personal: subjective experience.


2.Moodily introspective.

3.Existing only in the mind; illusory.

4.Psychology Existing only within the experiencer's mind.

 

[PeaceBaby]

poki, do you think Ti more frequently claims to be objective, despite the fact that both Ti and Fi are of subjective origin?

 

[Jaguar]

I'm beginning to think there's something wrong with you.

What was your first clue? Lol.

 

[Poki]

poki, do you think Ti more frequently claims to be objective, despite the fact that both Ti and Fi are of subjective origin?

ob⋅jec⋅tive  /əbˈdʒɛktɪv/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uhb-jek-tiv] Show IPA
Use objective in a Sentence
See images of objective
Search objective on the Web
–noun 1. something that one's efforts or actions are intended to attain or accomplish; purpose; goal; target: the objective of a military attack; the objective of a fund-raising drive.

My objective is Fe. I will try to play with how you feel and understand it. This is where me and sim have the same purpose and objective. We both watch how people respond emotionally to things and try to understand so we can better be able to control others emotionally. Know what makes them laugh, smile, fear, run, etc. I do this through experience by trying different things out and seeing how that person responds. Similiar to how Fi and Te will play with thoughts and see how someone responds.

I think people who claim to be objective have a desire to be objective. I think that this judgement of oneself to be objective is driven subjectively.

edit:

objective: not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.

To me someones feelings are unbiased, are not up for interpretation and should be taken as they are. They are not right or wrong, it just is.

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ thanks for that. Interesting indeed.

To refine, if the interpretation of objective (in this context) is to mean "not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion."

And with the origins of both Fi and Ti being subjective in nature, would it not be an oxymoron for Ti users to claim themselves to be more objective, more rational?

Do you think this so?

 

[Amargith]

Ok..my post vanished..

 

[JocktheMotie]

^ thanks for that. Interesting indeed.

To refine, if the interpretation of objective (in this context) is to mean "not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion."

And with the origins of both Fi and Ti being subjective in nature, would it not be an oxymoron for Ti users to claim themselves to be more objective, more rational?

Do you think this so?

Objective/subjective in MBTI mean different things than the more casual usage of the terms. Fi and Ti are both rational. Fi and Ti are both subjective. Feelings/morals are personal, subjective. Logic is impersonal, objective. Fi users tend to be attracted to moral systems, while Ti users tend to be attracted to logical ones, and both users incorporate the values and principles of those systems into their own frameworks of judging analysis.

I do think TPs tend to be more objective/rational than FPs in the common usage of the terms, but in MBTI terms they're equivalent in subjectivity and rationality.

 

[Poki]

^ thanks for that. Interesting indeed.

To refine, if the interpretation of objective (in this context) is to mean "not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion."

And with the origins of both Fi and Ti being subjective in nature, would it not be an oxymoron for Ti users to claim themselves to be more objective, more rational?

Do you think this so?

I think Ti is very rational and I would pit my ability to rationalize even the most irrational things against anyone. I can take rationalizing to an absurd level. I would never claim to be objective as I live in my head and realize that I dont have enough information to be objective. There is simply to much that is hidden.

Objective/subjective in MBTI mean different things than the more casual usage of the terms. Fi and Ti are both rational. Fi and Ti are both subjective. Feelings/morals are personal, subjective. Logic is impersonal, objective. Fi users tend to be attracted to moral systems, while Ti users tend to be attracted to logical ones, and both users incorporate the values and principles of those systems into their own frameworks of judging analysis.

I do think TPs tend to be more objective/rational than FPs in the common usage of the terms, but in MBTI terms they're equivalent in subjectivity and rationality.

So...

Te is objective and rational
Ti is subjective and rational
Fe is objective and irrational
Fi is subjective and irrational

This is pretty much what I notice. I would say that TPs can seem irrational externally as Fe is irrational when they are trying to work with others feelings.

 

[Space_Oddity]

Hmm... *cheesy alert * so, can I assume that Ti-doms believe that the world is governed by the universal law of logic, and Fi-doms believe that the world is governed by the universal law of... love? ^^;;;

No wonder we clash.