Public Service Announcement to Paranoid Fi doms

[simulatedworld]

^ I think I understand to a higher degree than you think, but am still annoyed and irritated by it, so I make threads like this to take out my frustration. This is what looks to you like "forgetting what I already understand"--I'm not forgetting; I'm just trolling you because it pisses me off when Fi-ers expect the whole world to bend over backward to accommodate their arbitrary feelings. (You're damn right this is Fe at work.)

What annoys me most is that society expects Thinkers to develop some manner of Feeling as they grow and develop, and we're ostracized if we don't...but many Feelers (specifically FPs) seem to have this sense of entitlement that their feelings can never be questioned and that they have no responsibility to learn any Thinking to balance them out. It's childish and one-sided. "I mean, that's how I feel about it--you can't question that or you'd be asking me to go against the very fabric of my identity!"

Well, what if ignoring what seems logical to me and listening to your feelings is going against the very fabric of my identity?

As one INFP friend told me, "Listen, if somebody you're working with has a feeling about something, you just have to go with that and respect it, no matter how unreasonable it is!" (Note that I still classify this person as a friend and hang out with him frequently. This implies that I still find enough things about his personality valuable to consider him a friend, despite his childish sense of entitlement to unconditionally have his feelings coddled. That should tell you something about your little "omg sim hates all Fi-ers!!!" theories.)

Frankly I find this double standard unfair and I resent it. It's apparently okay for Fi-ers to "just be who they are" and operate in nonstop Fi mode, ignoring Thinking; in fact, this attitude is glorified and encouraged by popular media--but it's not okay for Ti-ers to "just be who we are" and ignore Feeling because that makes us insensitive assholes.

I find it unreasonable that our cultural standards expect more Feeling out of T types than Thinking out of F types, and if the only place I can get away with fighting it sans significant negative consequence is on an internet forum, then that's what I'm gonna do.

There's some straight up Fe for you. I've learned the hard way not to bring this shit up in real life.

Now that I've actually explained some of my emotional motivations, maybe you all can shut the hell up with assigning them for me without my input. I don't hate Fi on principle and I don't complain about it because I'm secretly in love with PeaceBaby. I really honestly do have some INFP friends and I appreciate a lot of things about them--this has much, much bigger implications than that.

 

[Amargith]

*smiles* Then we're more alike than you think. Fi is bashed more than you realize I think, irl. And NFPs I'm pretty sure share your feeling of resentment that everything taught in schools, everything appreciated out in the real world, is logic and cold hard facts. Sure, there's some room for it, but mostly in dream worlds like movies or novels for people to escape to and it's never considered serious or right for reality. So..a lot of NFPs probably are responding in the same way you are to feeling restricted. In our case we're told to man up, provide logic or be ridiculed. In your case, you're told you're rude and inappropriate

I don't expect for a T to do any of those things. He can be just fine who he is. But don't be questioning my world because you're curious about something that you don't completely understand without showing some respect to the person who actually *lives* there. I didn't go: plz see this and understand me now! You came to look for NFPs and ask for explanations yourself. You find it odd that once you then judge those things from what most NFPs seem to think is a wrong understanding of how things work...they get annoyed at you and consider you rude? You're invading their space. I'm not telling you to stop analyzing or asking for logic. But you're asking it on a subject that just doens't use the same logic as you do. So either you learn the other 'type of logic', or you accept that you'll never understand. And bashing it, or getting frustrated at it won't change that.

I get that you're venting. I'm pretty sure other NFPs here do the same as they too feel that pressure from society irl. From my personal pov: I'd prefer it if all those Fi-thread things died already coz they give me a migraine and make me feel like I'm not able to get away from the real world again. It's more miscommunication, false judgements and more people misunderstanding and getting the wrong idea. And yeah, you could say, you can ignore them. But as I stated before...that annoying rekindling of hope that *someone* will get it, doesn't wanna die

 

[simulatedworld]

*smiles* Then we're more alike than you think. Fi is bashed more than you realize I think, irl. And NFPs I'm pretty sure share your feeling of resentment that everything taught in schools, everything appreciated out in the real world, is logic and cold hard facts. Sure, there's some room for it, but mostly in dream worlds like movies or novels for people to escape to and it's never considered serious or right for reality. So..a lot of NFPs probably are responding in the same way you are to feeling restricted. In our case we're told to man up, provide logic or be ridiculed. In your case, you're told you're rude and inappropriate

I don't think everything appreciated in the real world is logic and cold hard facts at all. I think if you actually spent a day as a strong Thinking type you'd run into a lot of problems with Feelers guilt tripping you and pushing you to be something you're not, and that you don't realize how many conditions in the "real world" favor Feeling because you're naturally fluent in it.

I see how this works both ways, of course, but I don't see the same sense of entitlement in most Ts that I do in so very many Fs. And really, it's rarely even FJs, as they tend to see the world in much more realistic terms--I have to be honest, it's almost exclusively FPs who didn't get the memo that the world doesn't revolve around their feelings.

I think there's a reason you see so many threads asking if Fi is associated with selfishness--because for many people, it is. The strong, balanced Fi-ers that I know have all learned to balance it out with Se/Ne, recognizing that sometimes you need to just go with the flow and adapt to changing conditions instead of sticking rigidly to your feelings.

As a Ti-er, I've had to learn a lot of that, mostly through building Fe-related skills. When I was younger I completely ignored/refused to deal with anything I considered illogical that couldn't be explained in precisely impersonal terms, and it didn't get me very far. In American society, you can't get away with ignoring the idea of emotion.

And yet, somehow, based on lots of evidence I see from selfish Fi-ers around me every day, you can get away with ignoring logic, if only you make a big enough scene about how people are hurting your feelings. Guilt tripping works far, far better on the basis of "You're being meeeean!" than it does on the basis of "You're being illogical." Ti-ers are forced to learn Fe to a much greater extent than Fi-ers are forced to learn Te. It's much more accepted to err on the side of too personal than it is to err on the side of too impersonal, and I find that really unfair.

P.S., you're the only Fi-er that's come even remotely close to accurately assessing my feelings. It's doubly irritating when others try to attach emotional motivation to everything, and do it inaccurately at that.

 

[nolla]

What annoys me most is that society expects Thinkers to develop some manner of Feeling as they grow and develop, and we're ostracized if we don't...but many Feelers (specifically FPs) seem to have this sense of entitlement that their feelings can never be questioned and that they have no responsibility to learn any Thinking to balance them out. It's childish and one-sided.

*smiles* Then we're more alike than you think. Fi is bashed more than you realize I think, irl. And NFPs I'm pretty sure share your feeling of resentment that everything taught in schools, everything appreciated out in the real world, is logic and cold hard facts.

Yep... Two sides of a coin. If I may, I too will vent a bit now... I too have felt frustrated by this... It's not like I didn't have enough logic, lucky for me I was always quite interested in science, so I somehow got the logic without even realizing it. But, as far as I remember, F was always a weakness. It is not "natural" for a boy to be that sensitive, so you can guess who they chose to pick on. And you know, it doesn't stop. It has just evolved into something else now. In the normal work place, for example, it is expected of me to keep a certain kind of a poker face. It isn't like I'm being emo over there or anything like that. It can be something like I get all enthusiastic over something and laugh too loud. As if you can't even express joy in there.

So, I have come to a conclusion that the best environments for me will be the ones with high amount of women or high amount of sensitive men. The people I hang out with, it seems to me like we are a bunch of outcasts. Not in the way that we are isolated from people, but in a way that the group is connected to other groups that are similar. I don't feel like I'm alone, but I do feel outside of the mainstream.

I haven't really found a way to be T enough. I just have to distance myself when I am in a situation requiring me to not be sensitive. This can be seen as uninterest in the task at hand, absent-mindedness or coldness.

 

[simulatedworld]

^ Good point in that there is probably a gender component to this as well.

F-type women are going to get away with ignoring Thinking much moreso than F-type men (for whom I genuinely feel sorry.)

 

[nolla]

F-type women are going to get away with ignoring Thinking much moreso than F-type men (for whom I genuinely feel sorry.)

I think that the most difficult thing to be would be a T-mom.

 

[Amargith]

Well it's a learning process, and it appears that you mostly meet them in debate, making Fi less reliable. Actually, if you truly wanna see Fi in action on guessing your feelings, you should try and have a one-on-one conversation with them, a harmonizing one, and you could gauge how accurate they can be. Stress just fucks us up, ime.

As for the rest, I can see your point. I too get annoyed at being guilttripped, though my beef is mostly with Fe on that. But don't underestimate the amount of disdain you get for not being logical. It' means you're stupid, you won't ever be able to take care of yourself, get a job, function in this society, have anything worthwile to contribute as it's not verifiable. Maybe it's coz I grew up surrounded by NTPs, but even in school, my oversensitive nature made me an outcast as, much as you've discovered, it's fun to poke at someone who responds, it's fun to hound them and bully them (teenage version, not saying this is you). And yes, the fact that we can be good at getting (some) people to like us and 'charm' them, tends to piss off others who feel that we've 'got it easy' coz we never have to do anything ourselves (or so they perceive it). They fail to see however that this too is a skill and something that requires great effort and it's often done without having that goal in mind. The goal is a side-effect caused by your personality and dynamic with people really. I cannot tell you how many times I've been looked at funny because the combo of having a rich boyfriend (who btw, I didn't know was wealthy when I started dating him) and the fact that you have trouble finding a job that suits you (Fi idealism+ reality not really working the way I do) gets you labelled as 'having it easy and taking advantage' (I do support myself but they don't see it that way). It gets you looked down upon. And your 'talents' are considered evil, while you suck at the things that 'matter' which, as I experienced it were logic, efficiency, verifiability, working hard, being punctual, getting things done, etc etc).

Anycase, that's my personal experience in the world, so I'm kinda venting here

 

[nolla]

But don't underestimate the amount of disdain you get for not being logical. It' means you're stupid, you won't ever be able to take care of yourself, get a job, function in this society, have anything worthwile to contribute as it's not verifiable. Maybe it's coz I grew up surrounded by NTPs, but even in school, my oversensitive nature made me an outcast as, much as you've discovered, it's fun to poke at someone who responds, it's fun to hound them and bully them (teenage version, not saying this is you).
---
It gets you looked down upon. And your 'talents' are considered evil, while you suck at the things that 'matter' which, as I experienced it were logic, efficiency, verifiability, working hard, being punctual, getting things done, etc etc).

Anycase, that's my personal experience in the world, so I'm kinda venting here

I bolded my experience. The thing I would like them to see is that I actually am contributing something. It isn't very obvious, and it might seem like I am just enjoying the benefits of other people's work as I don't seem to have results that I can show. It is very hard for me to find a place where my talents are of use. I would really want to be in such a position where anyone could see that I am not useless, or some sort of a mistake, but with my set of talents and traits, such a position is hard to find and hard to get.

 

[Amargith]

I bolded my experience. The thing I would like them to see is that I actually am contributing something. It isn't very obvious, and it might seem like I am just enjoying the benefits of other people's work as I don't seem to have results that I can show. It is very hard for me to find a place where my talents are of use. I would really want to be in such a position where anyone could see that I am not useless, or some sort of a mistake, but with my set of talents and traits, such a position is hard to find and hard to get.

QFT!!!

 

[JivinJeffJones]

I sympathize with the OP and I havent read much of the subsequent thread, but I really have to object to this:

I find it unreasonable that our cultural standards expect more Feeling out of T types than Thinking out of F types

As Nolla has pointed out, try being an F guy. From my perspective people will be far more likely to respect an asshole who's attempting (unsuccessfully) to be sensitive than to respect someone sensitive who's trying (unsuccessfully) to be hard. I think people "expect more Feeling out of T types" because it makes them less intimidating. It expects more Thinking out of F types because it makes them more useful. The desire to make someone less intimidating is more pressing than the desire to make them useful. But really, would you rather be considered intimidating or useless?

One thing I'm not sure you're picking up on is that sometimes these arbitrary feelings are considered sources of weaknesses. Thus when you're being asked to "respect" someone else's arbitrary feelings on a subject you're actually being asked not to stick the boot in when someone is already down (in that specific area). Iow you're being asked to show mercy rather than respect. Or at least forbearance.

Of course, sometimes people need someone to stick the boot in when they're already down. Otherwise they might never get up.

I'm not even sure why I wrote this, since the OP seems to be attacking something I find irritating in myself and other Fi-doms. It's probably the renowned INFP oversensitivity to criticism. :rolli:

 

[Kaveri]

"No, you're not so extraordinarily unique and special and unusual that your personality automatically defies all forms categorization and analysis."

In fact, I am. And so are you.

This reminds me of an incident... My psychiatrist wrote in a report that my identity is somehow dissolved or unsolid, which is supposedly a bad thing. And how did he conclude this? All I can remember is that a psychologist and a psychiatrist asked me questions like "What kind of a person are you?" and I replied "I don't know" or "that's a very complicated question" because of my convicion that people cannot be categorised or described in a nutshell. And because I'm sure that whatever I say makes them think that I'm something that I'm really not because there's always the other side of things etc. I certainly have a sense of who I am, it's just that I can't and don't want to be compelled to explain it in a few sentences. And it means that I have some kind of a dissolved identity? Argh! Want to know what I'm like? Well, don't ask what I'm like-- get to know me! Spend time with me!

 

[Udog]

One thing I'm not sure you're picking up on is that sometimes these arbitrary feelings are considered sources of weaknesses. Thus when you're being asked to "respect" someone else's arbitrary feelings on a subject you're actually being asked not to stick the boot in when someone is already down (in that specific area). Iow you're being asked to show mercy rather than respect. Or at least forbearance.

Of course, sometimes people need someone to stick the boot in when they're already down. Otherwise they might never get up.

Good alternative explanation. I can see that being possible if the INFP is a bit more balanced, and recognizes that invalidating the emotions isn't going to be effective. Of course, they may just be an Fi-monster.

I agree that there's a gender component to all this as well. I know that my experiences as an F-dom male did NOT involve society giving me more of a pass because I was an F. In fact, very much the opposite. Whereas I've noticed that F women are usually not pushed to develop that more objective side... and in fact my receive resistance if they do.

 

[Laurie]

F-type women are going to get away with ignoring Thinking much moreso than F-type men (for whom I genuinely feel sorry.)

Ugh, that's awful. "get away with ignoring thinking"? Being an F doesn't make you unable to reason any more than being T makes you unable to have feelings. Being an F is not an excuse for being a mushy idiot just as being T isn't an excuse for being an ahole. If either are used that way then it's a weakness on the part of the user.

eta: And being female is no excuse for not being rational.

 

[The Outsider]

What happened now?

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I'm not even sure why I wrote this, since the OP seems to be attacking something I find irritating in myself and other Fi-doms. It's probably the renowned INFP oversensitivity to criticism. :rolli:

Or it could be sensitivity to fragmentation and tunnel vision. I'm not particularly fond of overly dramatic statements which are also based on tunnel vision, but tend to ignore them or hope the person is trying to make a point. In many cases it is just how alot of people use language.

Modern pop society idolizes people who overstate their position and insult their opponents (I'm guessing it influences communication even on boards like this). Virtually every successful media personality is an "asshole". I think there are church and family communities that pressure people to be "Feelers" (meaning filtering communication for the purpose of the recipient), but I think it is stretching it to say that assholes are persecuted in society at large. Reason is trampled on most of the time, but aggressive communication is seen as heroic.

 

[garbage]

Frankly I find this double standard unfair and I resent it. It's apparently okay for Fi-ers to "just be who they are" and operate in nonstop Fi mode, ignoring Thinking; in fact, this attitude is glorified and encouraged by popular media--but it's not okay for Ti-ers to "just be who we are" and ignore Feeling because that makes us insensitive assholes.

I think there's a reason you see so many threads asking if Fi is associated with selfishness--because for many people, it is. The strong, balanced Fi-ers that I know have all learned to balance it out with Se/Ne, recognizing that sometimes you need to just go with the flow and adapt to changing conditions instead of sticking rigidly to your feelings.

If Fi users are forced by their circumstances to balance their Fi with perception, then that implies that it is not 'okay' for them to just be stuck in Fi mode. It is as you say; the world will smack them down eventually as a consequence of this, and they will have to adapt.

This is by no means a pity party on the part of an Fi user. Because it is also as you said before; thinkers users will have to balance their thinking tendency, as the world will smack them down in other ways if they don't.

The world smacks us all down in different ways and relishes in all of our strengths in different ways, too; we all have to learn balance to cope with circumstances that don't jive with our natural skillset.


For F dudes in a thinking environment? Be the diplomat or mediator. Play to those strengths. People do, in fact, eat that stuff up.

 

[simulatedworld]

Ugh, that's awful. "get away with ignoring thinking"? Being an F doesn't make you unable to reason any more than being T makes you unable to have feelings. Being an F is not an excuse for being a mushy idiot just as being T isn't an excuse for being an ahole. If either are used that way then it's a weakness on the part of the user.

eta: And being female is no excuse for not being rational.

Theoretically you're right; unfortunately it doesn't always work that way in practice.

"No, you're not so extraordinarily unique and special and unusual that your personality automatically defies all forms categorization and analysis."

In fact, I am. And so are you.

Categorizing people doesn't imply that the categorization describes everything about the person. It's just a label to denote that you show some general similarities to others. This is what the OP is complaining about--Fi being so threatened by "dehumanization" that it loses the practical value in generalized categorization and even insists that such categorization is impossible/useless by imagining that it must purport to completely describe everything about an individual.

If you know what typology actually does, you know that it doesn't pretend to be able to completely summarize a unique individual's personality in four letters--it's mostly just Fi doms who pretend that it's supposed to do that and hold it to an unrealistic standard. If you take it for what it's supposed to be--a very generalized observation of broad similarities in cognitive processes--then it works just fine, no matter how super special and unique you are.

I'm not even sure why I wrote this, since the OP seems to be attacking something I find irritating in myself and other Fi-doms. It's probably the renowned INFP oversensitivity to criticism. :rolli:

I commend you for being able to admit that this oversensitivity even exists. (Not that I expect anyone to notice when I say something positive to/about INFPs.)

If Fi users are forced by their circumstances to balance their Fi with perception, then that implies that it is not 'okay' for them to just be stuck in Fi mode. It is as you say; the world will smack them down eventually as a consequence of this, and they will have to adapt.

They're not forced to balance themselves; they just do it because some of them are wise people who recognize the value in doing so. I know more unbalanced Fi-ers who are rarely expected to pay attention to Thinking because people just accept that they're going to emo their way to getting whatever they want and deal with it.

 

[Jaguar]

F-type women are going to get away with ignoring Thinking much moreso than F-type men

Your comments are out of control.

 

[simulatedworld]

Your comments are out of control.

Yours are irrelevant and boring. Next.

 

[Jaguar]

Yours are irrelevant and boring. Next.

You have no ground to stand on and you know it.
Stop trolling the NFs with unfounded claims.
Now you are making it an attack on F women.

A woman must have refused to have sex with you last night.