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  1. #471
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Oddity View Post
    Ok, I get what you meant now. But what I mean is that Fi users are very often inclined to have similar approaches and stances towards the same topics. I always feel my INFP friends are my "soul-mates", and when we discuss something, we very often agree. In fact, we usually agree. Even on controversial topics. It's as if we worked on the same inner principle. I experience something similar with my INTJ mum and friends, so I guess it really might be Fi/Te at work.

    I realize now that when I wrote that "morals are universal" I probably had in mind Fi morals, but what I meant was for example that the idea of universal love is something included in every religion, no matter how it's misused.



    The word "personally" was more of a filler, actually

    The Fi universal is that things should be decided outside of (this is going to hard to word)...other "facts". Here, I'll let Lenore Thompson say it for me:

    "As an epistemological perspective, Fi leads you to take whatever a person thinks or believes as an expression of that person's unique nature--not to criticize it because it fails to live up to some externally imposed criteria like whether or not it's "logical" or "appropriate". As an ethical perspective, Fi leads you to act out of empathy regardless of the social status or "deservingness" of the beneficiary. Fi leads you to view all living things as equal in value, all needing to thrive in interpersonal harmony without giving up any of their uniqueness."

    In other words, a Te world view might want to take consideration of a whole bunch of facts before ruling on a moral issue: "What will follow as a logical consequence of ruling this way?" "Did the person have a warning?" "Did the victim deserve it?" "How many people did this behavior harm?" "Did the perpetrator break a particular law on the books, regardless of whether that law is conscionable?"

    The Fi world view can decide upon moral things without any of these pertinent facts. This is why non Fi users often feel like Fi users make court rulings without even hearing the case facts! To non Fi users its as if they are blind to cause and effect, "Mr Fi user! you do realize that ruling that way would create moral hazard, adverse selection and a host of other problems as a result of treating everyone equal/forgiving punishment?".

    Its this metaphorical blindness to cause and effect that actual ends up being the Fi redeeming quality however. This is what allows them to simply call out unconscionable acts to our attention. The sort of acts that are simply inhumane regardless of the laws of the book, regardless of past transgressions, regardless of moral hazard, regardless of adverse selection, regardless of how 'effective' something might be. This is why selling body parts, capital punishment and exploitation of labor often come up on the Fi-radar the strongest: they are things that might be perfectly functioning in a society, be totally legal in some places and maybe even solve problems, YET at the end of the day still be unconscionable. Thats Fi.

    These, "thats unconscionable" realizations are however quite rarely as important irl. This is probably why the Fi looks like they are crying wolf so damn much

  2. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Oddity View Post
    Ok, I get what you meant now. But what I mean is that Fi users are very often inclined to have similar approaches and stances towards the same topics. I always feel my INFP friends are my "soul-mates", and when we discuss something, we very often agree. In fact, we usually agree. Even on controversial topics. It's as if we worked on the same inner principle. I experience something similar with my INTJ mum and friends, so I guess it really might be Fi/Te at work.

    I realize now that when I wrote that "morals are universal" I probably had in mind Fi morals, but what I meant was for example that the idea of universal love is something included in every religion, no matter how it's misused.



    The word "personally" was more of a filler, actually
    Ok, so if someone doesnt agree with you then they are not as much of a "soul-mate". Could it be possible you limit your "soul-mates" based on similiar internal morals and have based "universal morals" on this? You control who you are around and in essence steer your "universal" morals based on this?

    One thing I notice in Te is hesitation if you feel like someone is trying to unwillingly steer your logic. You close yourself off to maintain your morals or your decision. This may not be you, but people tend to surround themselves with like minded individuals.
    Im out, its been fun

  3. #473
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Oddity View Post
    Sorry, maybe I just misunderstand, but your perception of Fi as something "subjective and irrational" implies to me that you think it's entirely individual for every person - something that doesn't have any solid basis. But I don't find this true. Fi is based on moral system, and personally, I do find moral system universal, and therefore (I assume?) objective. That is what made me comment about the "law of logic vs. law of love" - Ti users seem to perceive logic as something universal, but Fi users tend to perceive love and mercy as something universal. If Fi was something entirely "subjective and irrational", every Fi user would be entirely different and would have entirely different values and morals, but they don't. You might perceive Fi users as "living in their fantasy world" , but as for me, I perceive Ti users as "living in their fantasy world" as well. It's just a little different world
    Umm, every person's Fi is uniquely individual. If it wasn't, every Fi would have to agree with every other Fi on every issue, which is clearly not the case. Fi is absolutely not universal or objective...but both Fi and Ti users do tend to make the mistake of believing their Fi/Ti to be objective/universal, when in fact neither is.

    Not to mention, if every Fi person had the same universal ideas about ethics, that would really threaten the whole "we are all unique individuals who cannot be categorized by four letters" thing, wouldn't it?

    By the way, Fi and Ti are subjective because they exist only within the user and independently of any external influence.

    Fe and Te are objective because they depend on external conditions for their definitions of morality and logic.


    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    You personally find something objective... lol.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #474
    Senior Member Space_Oddity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    ...
    Thank you for this explanation, Babylon Candle. I agree with everything, except for the last two sentences I know that Fi ideals are deemed "inefficient" or "impractical" in this society, but I believe it shouldn't be like this If people placed more value on what is "unconscionable", or at least the same amount of value as on what is efficient, the world would become a better place, in my Fi opinion. Of course certain amount of Te is necessary to balance out Fi, but it should also go the other way round, and sadly it usually doesn't.
    Her head hung down
    Gazed at earth, finally keen,
    As the rabbit at the stoat,
    Till the earth was sky,
    Sky that was green,
    And brown clouds passed
    Like chestnut leaves along the ground.

    - SUSAN ANN AND IMMORTALITY, T. E. Hulme

  5. #475
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    do you think Ti more frequently claims to be objective, despite the fact that both Ti and Fi are of subjective origin?
    Yes, that is a common Ji mistake in general. Ti-ers often cannot see how their sense of natural logic is subjective any more than Fi-ers can see that about their sense of morality.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #476
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Oddity View Post
    Thank you for this explanation, Babylon Candle. I agree with everything, except for the last two sentences I know that Fi ideals are deemed "inefficient" or "impractical" in this society, but I believe it shouldn't be like this If people placed more value on what is "unconscionable", or at least the same amount of value as on what is efficient, the world would become a better place, in my Fi opinion. Of course certain amount of Te is necessary to balance out Fi, but it should also go the other way round, and sadly it usually doesn't.
    Indeed.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Yes, that is a common Ji mistake in general. Ti-ers often cannot see how their sense of natural logic is subjective any more than Fi-ers can see that about their sense of morality.
    But many mature, educated Fi-ers know that their sense of morality is subjective. I would say the same of Ti-ers and their logic.

    I think it's just as possible for an Fe-er to think their group's morality is the "right" or "done" way of doing things, just as a Te-er could assert that the efficient way of doing things is the "only" logical course of action.

    People, especially when they are young and/or ignorant, are always going to be seeing the world from their own perspective.

  8. #478
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    That doesnt change with many even at older age
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #479
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    But many mature, educated Fi-ers know that their sense of morality is subjective. I would say the same of Ti-ers and their logic.

    I think it's just as possible for an Fe-er to think their group's morality is the "right" or "done" way of doing things, just as a Te-er could assert that the efficient way of doing things is the "only" logical course of action.

    People, especially when they are young and/or ignorant, are always going to be seeing the world from their own perspective.

    I agree. I have noticed a HUGE difference from frequenting this place, just between 20,30, and 40 year olds in how much the different functions are pulled into play. I think a mature and developmentally functional person has learned to use most of the functions at least fairly well by the time he/she is an adult. But I think it's glaringly obvious that the devepmentally dysfunctional person illustrates a correlation between younger age and immature functions; they just haven't had as much time to work through issues, or develop those undifferentiated functions as much or as well.
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  10. #480
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    In regards to Babylons post, that defines Fi in terms of whats its objective or what it tries to do though. Fi "leads", etc. It doesnt define Fi, but through what it does or aims to achieve. It defines it through "lack of Te". How does lack of Te make it a moral decision and if Te is not moral and Fi is moral where do Ti and Fe stand? It sounds like she is defining Fi from what it is not, but all Lenore seems to know is what Fi is not(Te) and what it aims to achieve. Maybe we should get SFPs to define what Fi actually is and how to use it and get NFPs to define what it does and is used for.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Yes, that is a common Ji mistake in general. Ti-ers often cannot see how their sense of natural logic is subjective any more than Fi-ers can see that about their sense of morality.
    I know it is subjective, but I cannot see myself how my logic is subjective.
    Im out, its been fun

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