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  1. #461
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Fi is subjective and irrational
    How then can an Fi user even function?

    Fi is "existing in the mind" and "without the faculty of reason" ...

    Ooooh this is why we tread on dangerous grounds ...

    sub?jec?tive
    –adjective
    1. existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective ).
    2. pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.
    3. placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric.

    ir?ra?tion?al
    –adjective
    1. without the faculty of reason; deprived of reason.
    2. without or deprived of normal mental clarity or sound judgment.
    3. not in accordance with reason; utterly illogical: irrational arguments.
    4. not endowed with the faculty of reason: irrational animals.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I do think TPs tend to be more objective/rational than FPs in the common usage of the terms, but in MBTI terms they're equivalent in subjectivity and rationality.
    I did see this too, yet poki's conclusions are in contradiction. This is the crux I think - even though they are equal in MBTI terms, do Ti users see Fi users as equally rational? Me thinks not. How subjective!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    ― Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    ― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #462
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I did see this too, yet poki's conclusions are in contradiction. This is the crux I think - even though they are equal in MBTI terms, do Ti users see Fi users as equally rational? Me thinks not. How subjective!
    Well, you can operate on a rational basis, but not a logical one. I should probably edit that in. It's when you start interchanging rational with logical in MBTI [it tends to be interchanged in casual usage] and vice versa you can get in trouble and everyone gets confused. This is why agreement of terms is so important



  3. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    How then can an Fi user even function?

    Fi is "existing in the mind" and "without the faculty of reason" ...

    Ooooh this is why we tread on dangerous grounds ...

    sub?jec?tive
    –adjective
    1. existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective ).
    2. pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.
    3. placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric.

    ir?ra?tion?al
    –adjective
    1. without the faculty of reason; deprived of reason.
    2. without or deprived of normal mental clarity or sound judgment.
    3. not in accordance with reason; utterly illogical: irrational arguments.
    4. not endowed with the faculty of reason: irrational animals.



    I did see this too, yet poki's conclusions are in contradiction. This is the crux I think - even though they are equal in MBTI terms, do Ti users see Fi users as equally rational? Me thinks not. How subjective!
    In a fantasy world, lol. Sorry I like your fantasy worlds, just poking fun at you.

    You forget though you are both Fi and Te. We are in essence in contradiction with ourself just like I can be both rational or irrational. I choose what I want to be. On a personal internal level I am rational, but on an external level I choose to be irrational at times. So in essence I myself am in contradictory between what I do and what I will do for others.

    Do you find yourself trying to be rational when it comes to others and not care so much when the judgement only affects you. Only you can answer this, but how much do you change when your decisions affect you vs when they affect others?
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Objective/subjective in MBTI mean different things than the more casual usage of the terms. Fi and Ti are both rational. Fi and Ti are both subjective. Feelings/morals are personal, subjective. Logic is impersonal, objective. Fi users tend to be attracted to moral systems, while Ti users tend to be attracted to logical ones, and both users incorporate the values and principles of those systems into their own frameworks of judging analysis.
    In fact, introversion, extroversion, thinking, and feeling in MBTI also have different connotations than the "normal" usage of the terms do, but the MBTI definitions and the "real" definitions are often conflated in discussions on these forums. As a result, quite often, more is read into the MBTI definitions than should be.

  5. #465
    Senior Member Space_Oddity's Avatar
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    Sorry, maybe I just misunderstand, but your perception of Fi as something "subjective and irrational" implies to me that you think it's entirely individual for every person - something that doesn't have any solid basis. But I don't find this true. Fi is based on moral system, and personally, I do find moral system universal, and therefore (I assume?) objective. That is what made me comment about the "law of logic vs. law of love" - Ti users seem to perceive logic as something universal, but Fi users tend to perceive love and mercy as something universal. If Fi was something entirely "subjective and irrational", every Fi user would be entirely different and would have entirely different values and morals, but they don't. You might perceive Fi users as "living in their fantasy world" , but as for me, I perceive Ti users as "living in their fantasy world" as well. It's just a little different world
    Her head hung down
    Gazed at earth, finally keen,
    As the rabbit at the stoat,
    Till the earth was sky,
    Sky that was green,
    And brown clouds passed
    Like chestnut leaves along the ground.

    - SUSAN ANN AND IMMORTALITY, T. E. Hulme

  6. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Oddity View Post
    Sorry, maybe I just misunderstand, but your perception of Fi as something "subjective and irrational" implies to me that you think it's entirely individual for every person - something that doesn't have any solid basis. But I don't find this true. Fi is based on moral system, and personally, I do find moral system universal, and therefore (I assume?) objective. That is what made me comment about the "law of logic vs. law of love" - Ti users seem to perceive logic as something universal, but Fi users tend to perceive love and mercy as something universal. If Fi was something entirely "subjective and irrational", every Fi user would be entirely different and would have entirely different values and morals, but they don't. You might perceive Fi users as "living in their fantasy world" , but as for me, I perceive Ti users as "living in their fantasy world" as well. It's just a little different world
    How can moral systems be universal? Something as simple as abortion can be argued on so many levels but you would have your own "personal" moral opinion of it. Sorry, couldnt think of a better topic, I dont want to go into the reasons or logic in regards to abortion. Though shall not kill, yet in some instances its ok. If morals were universal we wouldnt need judges or courts, or any of that.
    Im out, its been fun

  7. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Oddity View Post
    Fi is based on moral system, and personally, I do find moral system universal, and therefore (I assume?) objective.
    You personally find something objective... lol.

  8. #468
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I lately had an intresting meeting with the Dad of my girlfriend. We know each other already but he is in a kind of situation at the moment. His 90 year old mother become really bad at old age and did something evil with money and hurt him very very much with that. It's best described as she betrayed her own son.

    He got very frustrated and angry about that, but he never showed. He's still a nice and friendly man on the outside, looking like nothing could move him. But then we measured blood pressure in a group *lol* ( it's a family of doctors, they do such things ). And he had a high blood pressure I have never seen in my life. He had a blood pressure of 250 mmHG what's like overkill and he was totally calm on the outside.

    With that I will not say that Fi means to hide your emotions or to be not able to vocalize them; I rather think Fi people are the Ones who do need some time, some times a lot of time to settle with things that moved their lifes gravely.

    I wouldnt say in any moment that this fail or anything else, to me it's the most basic expression of what humans are, namely humans.

    I am quite convinced that, especially if someone hasnt experienced much of life yet and got many questions or hadnt had the chance to ever share his own feelings in a close way with another person, this can breed a lot of solitude.

    But then again solitude rocks. My life would be empty without wumpscut

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PscqFGvRFPI"].[/YOUTUBE]
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #469
    Senior Member Space_Oddity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    How can moral systems be universal? Something as simple as abortion can be argued on so many levels but you would have your own "personal" moral opinion of it. Sorry, couldnt think of a better topic, I dont want to go into the reasons or logic in regards to abortion. Though shall not kill, yet in some instances its ok. If morals were universal we wouldnt need judges or courts, or any of that.
    Ok, I get what you meant now. But what I mean is that Fi users are very often inclined to have similar approaches and stances towards the same topics. I always feel my INFP friends are my "soul-mates", and when we discuss something, we very often agree. In fact, we usually agree. Even on controversial topics. It's as if we worked on the same inner principle. I experience something similar with my INTJ mum and friends, so I guess it really might be Fi/Te at work.

    I realize now that when I wrote that "morals are universal" I probably had in mind Fi morals, but what I meant was for example that the idea of universal love is something included in every religion, no matter how it's misused.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin
    You personally find something objective... lol.
    The word "personally" was more of a filler, actually
    Her head hung down
    Gazed at earth, finally keen,
    As the rabbit at the stoat,
    Till the earth was sky,
    Sky that was green,
    And brown clouds passed
    Like chestnut leaves along the ground.

    - SUSAN ANN AND IMMORTALITY, T. E. Hulme

  10. #470
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Simulatedworld...
    1. I understand where you were coming from, with your first post. The thread you were responding to annoyed me, too - esp. the way his posts were phrased. But of course, for a poor ESTJ like me, trying to read VictorTater language is really, really hard. I just get impatient with it, and I think "Why can't you get your point across in a straightforward, matter-of-fact way?" But that's just me. To each his/her own.
    2. I haven't read the entire thread, but I read a couple pages back when you were talking about how a lot of people still really like your posts (take note: I am one of those people), and that the people who would start avoiding you would be people you didn't want to interact with anyways, i.e. INFPs. But, just so you know, if/when people do choose to not interact with you after all this, it won't be because they're easily offended. It'll be because people thought you were being a jerk, and make a point of avoiding people who they consider to be jerks. And the standards held at INTPc would definitely not make them feel differently about your behavior.
    3. I think that, when you posted that first post, you were just stating what a lot of people were already thinking, but didn't want to say - i.e. CERTAIN INFPs should stop doing that. I certainly thought that, too, but I didn't say anything, because 1. that would be a personal attack, and 2. the paranoia you mentioned is so deeply held by those select few INFPs that, imo, they're impossible to convince otherwise, and that's just who they are. Better to ignore all that, than to get involved in an absolutely pointless debate.
    4. Finally, on to my question: Why make this thread? What purpose does it serve? Keep in mind that I'm not your enemy, and I'm not one of those people who's going to ignore you now - it's an innocent question, and I just want a little insight into your though process.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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