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  1. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    They're not forced to balance themselves; they just do it because some of them are wise people who recognize the value in doing so. I know more unbalanced Fi-ers who are rarely expected to pay attention to Thinking because people just accept that they're going to emo their way to getting whatever they want and deal with it.
    My point was the contradiction between your two statements that I had quoted. It cannot both seen as socially 'okay' for Fi-users to be stubborn and self-absorbed, and for that sort of stubbornness to be something that they 'need' to overcome because people see it as selfishness.

    And I think we both agree that selfishness isn't a virtue; I also believe that most people see that. That's part of my point--selfishness cannot get one very far.

  2. #412
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    It's not just paranoid Fi doms that believe this. I have an INFJ friend (I'm not sure if I would consider her paranoid?) that believes the same thing (MBTI is too constraining, people cannot be boxed in, doesn't account for individual differences), and therefore, she thinks all personality profiles (MBTI included) are the same thing as horoscopes.


    The only difference I can really think of here is that she only ever discusses it if I ask her about it. I'm not sure if she would ever join a forum to talk about it; I don't think it interests her enough, and obviously she doesn't believe in it. Maybe if she felt her actions would bring about some kind of change, she would get involved.


    Edit: I don't want to argue with anyone. I'm just adding an observation.
    4w3 sx/sp? INFP, INFp

  3. #413
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    My point was the contradiction between your two statements that I had quoted. It cannot both seen as socially 'okay' for Fi-users to be stubborn and self-absorbed, and for that sort of stubbornness to be something that they 'need' to overcome because people see it as selfishness.

    And I think we both agree that selfishness isn't a virtue; I also believe that most people see that. That's part of my point--selfishness cannot get one very far.
    I know; I was clarifying that this isn't really a contradiction because people seeing it as selfishness isn't usually the reason these people balance themselves out.


    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    What trips me up is that men are just as emotional as women. Sorry as a man I see this alot, T types just choose to hide it behind anger as thats a "manly" emotion. 2 counselors have both said to me that anger is a secondary reaction to hurt which is what, say it with me class, "EMO".

    Sim, what caught my eye is that growing up you were against anything without logic and now you are slamming the very thing YOU helped to create which is the need for Fi to NEED people to just listen to them. Sorry I grew up with an Fi and you know what they may not always have the best ideas, the most thought out responses, but unlike T people, they laugh and joke and play about it. Dude learn to try Fi out a time or two, not expecting it to be right or to slam them if they are wrong but to enjoy what Fi can bring to a situation.

    Nothing in this world is about right or wrong it is about working together, laughing, having fun, helping each other out. My philosophy has pretty much always been, screw me over and I am gone, learn to let go and have fun and we can do anything together as I will always try my hardest to let things go and move beyond the past.
    Not that I particularly expect you to believe me, but yeah, I'm much more attentive to the feelings of others in real life. As I've explained before I use the forum as an outlet because I can experiment with people's reactions here without burning bridges with real people.

    imho Ti types don't have Fi and vice versa. The key to building emotional awareness for us is harnessing and controlling Fe, so I don't really think I can "try out Fi". If it was that easy, there wouldn't be so many longstanding Ti vs. Fi disagreements everywhere.

    I imagine my forum persona makes everyone assume I'm awfully uptight and angry in real life, but that's not really the case. I am fully capable of filtering my words and actions when necessary; I just choose not to do it much here.


    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Honey, I've had debates with you where you suddenly felt compelled to correct my spelling or word choice because you'd ran out of meaningful things to say. But as soon as I question one of your posts for meaning and clarity I'm "imagining things."

    Maybe I'm just ignoring things.
    I just find it strange that you don't seem to question my generalizations until I'm generalizing about a group that you personally belong to. Seems like it would hit closer to home for you there.

    btw, everyone sees what he wants to see.


    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    That's because some people know how to word things (and I'm not saying that I'm always one of them!). Perhaps you should use that nice fluffy Fe of yours to learn how to phrase things in such a manner that all the porcupines in a fifty mile radius don't start getting all prickly.
    Well if porcupines = NFPs, then no, I'm not really going to do that. You can see how this fits in with my theory that NFPs read things into people's words that aren't there. If you guys didn't do that frequently, people wouldn't accuse you of oversensitivity. (Case in point--I directed the OP at "paranoid Fi doms", which gives all of them a chance to dissociate themselves from it simply by not classifying themselves as paranoid, and a number of them still took it personally.) So given my belief that many porcupines are overly sensitive to perceived insult, I don't really plan to fluff up my words just to avoid prickling them.

    On a side note, I should point out that zero SFPs got involved in this. Somehow it's a uniquely FiNe phenomenon--FiSe seems content with reading what's really actually there and not filling in "between the lines" content with no evidence that the author intended it.

    If everyone of all types (or even most people of most types) perceived as much ill intent in my phrasings as NFPs do, I might bother, but for now I'm going to continue to consider it your problem until you learn to read what's actually there and not add meaning that I didn't create.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #414
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Maybe it's the schools here, but my high school taught math, science, latin and other languages (latin is taught to teach 'logic' here). So..logic, logic and more, but a different kind of logic. We had two hours of art class and a minimum of 8 hours if not more a week of...well, logic. And being emo got you teased in school. Though social rules and norms are expected, imo, you don't need them to get somewhere in life, at the very least till you get a job and even then you can avoid it. Granted, the pressure is big not to be an asshole, but then so is the pressure not to be a moron and make 'logical' decisions in your life and the disapproving looks you get for not doing it 'according ot a logical and efficient plan', not to mention the worried look on their faces that you just are too sensitive for this world are just as bad as them rolling your eyes at you for being such an asshole.
    But that's the thing. I've made very well-thought out, or rather well-felt decisions, with Fi. Fi is a great judging function if it's channeled properly, like with any other judging function. I'd even say many of my decisions are better than some of those who claim that the system of logic is the truth, the light, and the way, because Fi is tailored specifically for me; logic isn't the only way for people to make judgments. I believe it's difficult for non-Fi users to understand Fi because it's so subjective and particular to the individual. Meeting a new Fi dom/aux is (I hate that I'm yielding to a cliché but so be it) like opening a box chocolates: you never know what flavor you're going to find. Every Fi user is different.

    Seriously, F(i) women do not have it easier than T(i) men. At least not where I'm from. I see my nephew struggling with having Ti and he does get corrected a lot. He's considered the difficult child becoz he's so headstrong and tramples other children in the process. And I see his Fi brother suffering his wrath, as well as getting told his parents to man up already and stop whining like a baby. And it's like watching me and my brother when we were younger. Two sides of the coin. Both annoyed with the world and struggling to fulfill its demands.
    This is true. I think there are similarities between Ti and Fi. We both have difficulty finding our place in society. It's honestly not about who's hurting the most.


    *Just Adding Some Commentary.

  5. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Seriously, F(i) women do not have it easier than T(i) men. At least not where I'm from. I see my nephew struggling with having Ti and he does get corrected a lot. He's considered the difficult child becoz he's so headstrong and tramples other children in the process. And I see his Fi brother suffering his wrath, as well as getting told his parents to man up already and stop whining like a baby. And it's like watching me and my brother when we were younger. Two sides of the coin. Both annoyed with the world and struggling to fulfill its demands.
    I had a similar experience with my INTP older brother. He had far more of a temper and had a harder time making allowances for his own emotional needs (so they tended to build until he exploded). On the other hand, he had an easier time going his own way, since he didn't spend so much time trying to keep the peace.

    Of course, being Fi as a guy is not necessarily the easiest thing, depending on environment (and, as OA has pointed out before, it's no cakewalk for women, since Fe is the expectation).

    Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled discussion.

  6. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I know; I was clarifying that this isn't really a contradiction because people seeing it as selfishness isn't usually the reason these people balance themselves out.
    I sort of saw "selfishness" and "rigidly sticking with one's own feelings" to be the same thing, or at least very closely related. Do you differentiate between the two?

  7. #417
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    I sort of saw "selfishness" and "rigidly sticking with one's own feelings" to be the same thing, or at least very closely related. Do you differentiate between the two?
    Only slightly, but that's not what I meant. I meant that other people seeing them as selfish isn't the reason for balancing--it's more that some people see value in balance for its own sake, regardless of what others think about them.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #418
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    ^ Social and work pressure can wake an Fi dom up just as easily as it does a Ti dom and it's there, believe me. If an Fi dom has to work to pay their own bills or wants to make through some sort of training/colllege program to acheive a personal goal, they have to learn balance or else they spiral into self-destruction. Even to have a successful marriage, one has to learn compromise. Maybe an Fi dom can get away with few pressures to change if they are being coddled/ financially supported by a parent in their twenties but sooner or later, surely they have to come out into the larger world?

    But yes, I know an ESFP who never has, her parents coddled/supported her all through her adult life and so did her siblings. Now her Mama is dying and she's in full panic. and she doesn't understand why so many people have hardened themselves to her. She really does feel she can do/say whatever she feels like doing and be forgiven over and over and over.

  9. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Not that I particularly expect you to believe me, but yeah, I'm much more attentive to the feelings of others in real life. As I've explained before I use the forum as an outlet because I can experiment with people's reactions here without burning bridges with real people.
    The people here on the forum are real people, though. You can't say with certainty if or when the two will overlap. A little civility has no place here? Not offended; just curious.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I just find it strange that you don't seem to question my generalizations until I'm generalizing about a group that you personally belong to. Seems like it would hit closer to home for you there.
    Yes, that's a good discernment on your part. I think perhaps you should refine your statements on Fi to say that likely hot buttons exist for individual Fi users whereby we turn extra scrutiny on the topic at hand if it alerts our personal radar. Not that we read something into EVERYTHING you say. But when you say something that sounds ill-informed, bigoted, or stereotypical we feel a need to peel away your generalization and reveal it as a falsehood.

    Personally, I can get pretty ferocious and passionate in those situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    btw, everyone sees what he wants to see.
    Sure they do, so do you. And don't turn back on me and say "of course I know that."

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    On a side note, I should point out that zero SFPs got involved in this. Somehow it's a uniquely FiNe phenomenon--FiSe seems content with reading what's really actually there and not filling in "between the lines" content with no evidence that the author intended it.
    As an alternate conclusion, did it not occur to you that they all "know" better? That engaging in this type of dialogue is just a waste of their time, energy and emotion because they'll never be able to convince you otherwise? I'm just saying there may be many more reasons why they chose not to get involved. Many INFP's didn't get involved not because they saw rationality in your conclusions, but because they know from experience that this will be a hard, circular style argument where "feelings" wouldn't be a priority.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    If everyone of all types (or even most people of most types) perceived as much ill intent in my phrasings as NFPs do, I might bother, but for now I'm going to continue to consider it your problem until you learn to read what's actually there and not add meaning that I didn't create.
    It takes two to tango, two to misunderstand, two to fight. Why add fuel? Why provoke? Again, not offended; just curious. It can't possibly be much fun at this point.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    ― Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    ― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post



    Not that I particularly expect you to believe me, but yeah, I'm much more attentive to the feelings of others in real life. As I've explained before I use the forum as an outlet because I can experiment with people's reactions here without burning bridges with real people.
    So do other people, including Fi users. Lots of people use these forum as an "outlet" and behave slightly differently than they would in their life. That pretty much sums up what's wrong with the Internet...you know,that, and pop-up ads.





    I just find it strange that you don't seem to question my generalizations until I'm generalizing about a group that you personally belong to. Seems like it would hit closer to home for you there.

    btw, everyone sees what he wants to see.
    Actually, I question your posts (or rather your methods) constantly and roll my eyes at your posts a lot. It usually stops there because it happens so much it wouldn't even be worth it. I actually began avoiding this thread when I saw as the days passed you became increasingly and increasingly more obnoxious. I should have stayed with that impulse.



    Well if porcupines = NFPs, then no, I'm not really going to do that. You can see how this fits in with my theory that NFPs read things into people's words that aren't there. If you guys didn't do that frequently, people wouldn't accuse you of oversensitivity. (Case in point--I directed the OP at "paranoid Fi doms", which gives all of them a chance to dissociate themselves from it simply by not classifying themselves as paranoid, and a number of them still took it personally.) So given my belief that many porcupines are overly sensitive to perceived insult, I don't really plan to fluff up my words just to avoid prickling them.
    But you purposely insult people. You purposely started this thread to create drama. Anyone can see that, not just NFPs. It's just that INFPs are more likely to see an insult even when you stop. There have been numerous occasions when you were being reasonable in other discussions that INFPs really were being ridiculous. However, in this thread, you were fucking trolling and provoking people, and you've already admitted it, so please stop it with the "oversensitivity" line.

    What is up with your mission to convert NFPs to your way of thinking anyway? Fe dom messiah much?

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