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  1. #381
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Actually, it *was* finally going somewhere...
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  2. #382
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Indeed ...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #383
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    preferably from orbit

    it's the only way to be sure

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    Hello

  4. #384
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    I invite anyone to explain how these two statements do not mean the same thing:

    1)
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    ...society finds it more tolerable for F-type women to be overly sensitive and not pay attention to Thinking...than it does F-type men.
    2)
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    ^ Good point in that there is probably a gender component to this as well.

    F-type women are going to get away with ignoring Thinking much moreso than F-type men...
    Anybody, please. I'd love to hear what's so different about these two posts.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #385
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Anybody, please. I'd love to hear what's so different about these two posts.
    They read the same to me. Society's allowance for women to be emotional or irrational is not so much acceptance, but dismissal on a deeper level. There is a long history of dismissing meaningful contribution from such a person as is "emotional and irrational".

    At the same time I see your point about the lack of rationality in society. It's quite a problem that goes beyond social comfort of any particular type. It is destructive to embrace irrationality. It is a huge problem that should be addressed in the educational system. I don't tend to see as direct a link between rationality=dismissing people's feelings as is suggested in many online discussions. I do understand that many people focus on ideas in such a way as to not be conscious of social or emotional parameters. Rationality is important enough that I will take it packaged in any way as long as it lies at the foundation of what is offered.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #386
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    ....
    What annoys me most is that society expects Thinkers to develop some manner of Feeling as they grow and develop, and we're ostracized if we don't...but many Feelers (specifically FPs) seem to have this sense of entitlement that their feelings can never be questioned and that they have no responsibility to learn any Thinking to balance them out.

    It's childish and one-sided. "I mean, that's how I feel about it--you can't question that or you'd be asking me to go against the very fabric of my identity!"
    As you describe it, then that is their personal belief on the matter, not the view of society as a whole as you imply below.


    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    ...Frankly I find this double standard unfair and I resent it. It's apparently okay for Fi-ers to "just be who they are" and operate in nonstop Fi mode, ignoring Thinking; in fact, this attitude is glorified and encouraged by popular media
    I'd have to see examples of this before I would believe this. I don't personally see a lot of acceptance of Fi-ness in the modern world. I see mostly acceptance of the Te and Fe types of being. Especially in the workplace.


    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    ....but it's not okay for Ti-ers to "just be who we are" and ignore Feeling because that makes us insensitive assholes.
    In this capitalist society, society approval is mostly shown through how much money a person makes. Are you suggesting that strong T types don't make as much money as Strong F types, especially Fi doms?

    If you assert this position, can you defend it with proof?

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    ....I find it unreasonable that our cultural standards expect more Feeling out of T types than Thinking out of F types
    Proof?

    To me, this just sounds like a personal perception. Like I said, my own personal perception is that Te and Fe are most valued. Get things done, fit it. That sort of a thing.


    Where is your evidence that these immature Fi types you claim to know don't create negative situations for themselves? How do you know they don't suffer setbacks in their career and earning potiential, their relationships, their social networks over such behavior?

  7. #387
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    They read the same to me. Society's allowance for women to be emotional or irrational is not so much acceptance, but dismissal on a deeper level. There is a long history of dismissing meaningful contribution from such a person as is "emotional and irrational".

    At the same time I see your point about the lack of rationality in society. It's quite a problem that goes beyond social comfort of any particular type. It is destructive to embrace irrationality. It is a huge problem that should be addressed in the educational system. I don't tend to see as direct a link between rationality=dismissing people's feelings as is suggested in many online discussions. I do understand that many people focus on ideas in such a way as to not be conscious of social or emotional parameters. Rationality is important enough that I will take it packaged in any way as long as it lies at the foundation of what is offered.
    Thank you. Unfortunately marm doesn't seem to think they mean the same thing, and would rather brag about her college GPA and ACT scores in rep comments than bother to read the thread. Glad to know I'm not going crazy.

    Personally, I suspect that she mistakenly read "F-type women can't use Thinking" or "Most F-type women ignore Thinking" into my words when neither of those statements was written or even implied--chalk it up to FiNe imagining shit that isn't there again, I suppose.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #388
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ no, don't slip back quite so quickly, we were just making progress!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Thank you. Unfortunately marm doesn't seem to think they mean the same thing, and would rather brag about her college GPA and ACT scores in rep comments than bother to read the thread. Glad to know I'm not going crazy.
    When you make insults about someone's reading comprehension, it's not that unreasonable for that person to point out that their reading comprehension is actually superior to the average person's by academic standards. You dragging this into the thread is Fe manipulation, not Ti.

    Personally, I suspect that she mistakenly read "F-type women can't use Thinking" or "Most F-type women ignore Thinking" into my words when neither of those statements was written or even implied--chalk it up to FiNe imagining shit that isn't there again, I suppose.
    You're coming across as sort of ExFJ right now. I can see you preaching from the pulpit and the blinded choir singing hallelujah.

  10. #390
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    As you describe it, then that is their personal belief on the matter, not the view of society as a whole as you imply below.
    For some people, it's both. Yes, some Fi doms do believe that their feelings should never be questioned, and yes, American gender expectations do consider emotional personality more acceptable for females than for males. This much should be obvious.




    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I'd have to see examples of this before I would believe this. I don't personally see a lot of acceptance of Fi-ness in the modern world. I see mostly acceptance of the Te and Fe types of being. Especially in the workplace.
    You have a good point that this probably isn't true in the corporate workplace. It applies a lot more in social and interpersonal situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    In this capitalist society, society approval is mostly shown through how much money a person makes. Are you suggesting that strong T types don't make as much money as Strong F types, especially Fi doms?

    If you assert this position, can you defend it with proof?
    No, I'm not suggesting that; I'm referring to social, interpersonal and familial situations.



    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Proof?

    To me, this just sounds like a personal perception. Like I said, my own personal perception is that Te and Fe are most valued. Get things done, fit it. That sort of a thing.
    I can't offer any evidence of this except my own experiences.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Where is your evidence that these immature Fi types you claim to know don't create negative situations for themselves? How do you know they don't suffer setbacks in their career and earning potiential, their relationships, their social networks over such behavior?
    Maybe they do. Good point.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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