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  1. #161
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Interesting. Why do you suppose it is that certain Fi-ers consider themselves too unique for typological categorization? I'm curious now. Why is the process of categorization considered dehumanizing?
    You said above that the only part of MBTI you use is the code. So I take it you don't get much into cognitive dynamics. I'm trying to remember if you're one of the people who has criticized or dismissed it in past discussions when I've mentioned it.
    But I think that is the perfect explanation of what is going on here.

    Categorization based on purely logical things (with people treated as things, rather than "unique individuals") is associated with Ti. To a dominant Fi type, Ti is the 8th function (not in strength, but in the ego's ranking order), paired by Beebe with Jung's "demon" archetype. IT can even come off as evil, because it is so opposed to their dominant, or "heroic" system of personal classification. Their preferred world of judgment is internal. They have rejected logical considerations from that world, and chose values instead (and will turn to the outside world when they need logical considerations; hence using it's lack of "empirical" credibility to put it down). You've likewise rejected values from the internal world, and chosen logic, (and will turn to the outside world for values; hence addressing this publicly).
    I myself had the same problem, when I was in the process of learning all this stuff (ironically), and had stumbled into a heavy Fi environment, that would listen to "experts" discuss type theory, but not want to hear it from anyone else, unless it was strictly how it applied personally.

    You can clearly see the root of the clash in these responses:

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    The process of categorization isn't dehumanizing. Fi-users as well categorize. It's a way to manage the world. The moment however it becomes dehumanizing is when you fail to categorize all the information, especially that relevant to humans, such as their individual quirks, which make them very much who they are. When you fail to recognize that despite your categorization, each human is still unique and you would need to know their background and their views on the world in order to judge perfectly which likely category suits them best. To not do so, to jump to conclusions and scream 'I have the answer, I know, I know, shut up, I know how you function!' is annoying and hurtful...as you yourself, ironically, have found to be true at the hands of Fi-users having a lazy or emotional moment, causing those prerequisites to go out the window. Unfortunately, Ti stops the moment it thinks it's figured out the system. And doesn't realize that that..well, that's only the beginning. The real work still follows, as that person can finetune your complex system in ways you haven't imagined. And unless you verify for real that you are in fact correct, you're an arrogant prick in my books.

    Don't get me wrong, I too get lazy and presumptuous, when recognizing signs in others that instantly make me go: ohh that's how they work. But I try very hard to check and recheck, before I file them away. They're humans. People. And there's more to them than you seem to give them credit for. Your loss, their pain. Lose-lose, imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    You're dealing after all with people, not facts and therefore feelings will be hurt if you go about it the same way. I've had plenty people asking me to make a judgement on them, tell them who they are a such. I refuse to do so till I've tested and retested, till I find that I actually am unlikely to have missed anything (in the field they're asking about).
    I postpone judgement on people as long as I can for this very reason. Of course I keep the impressions they've made in the back of my mind and work with them, i'd be foolish not to. But I keep in mind I might just not know what their motivation for it. And therefore, before I know that motivation, I do *not* judge. I also find that once I know it, I often have no reason to judge, 90 percent of the time *because* I understand so well where they're coming from at that point.

    I myself have no problem being judged by others, on one condition: that they've shown clearly that they understand how and why I do things. That there is no miscommunication there. If after that, you still disagree with my behavior, I will gladly accept that and accomodate you, and have no qualms with your judgement on that. But before that happens, your half-assed judgement is going to make me roll my eyes and annoy the shit out of me. And unfortunately I have a need to make myself understood, which leads to frustration when the other won't even hear me.

    That, to me, is the root of these Fi-threads and is the thing that gives me just a massive head ache (and I am talking about both sides now, not just Ti-users, but also Fi-users getting baited in tossing out untested conclusions about others though I understand better where that comes from).

    It screams incompetence to me and I have no patience for people who claim to know stuff when their conclusions smell of half-assing it, especially when it comes to people as it is such a delicate field. Add to that the arrogance of claiming that you (=general you) know me so well you don't even have to listen to where I think you might be wrong and I'm done with you. Sounds fair?
    You can see that the Fi even works basically the same way as Ti, by breaking things down to their base parts, retesting the model it forms, etc. The difference is that for Fi, those parts will be the "personal" elements she mentions, to understand the person better, and categorize according to things such as emotions; where Ti will break down the theory into its parts, to understand it better, and then use it to categorize the people. This is seen by them as cold and impersonal. For us, we don't usually seem to react to the personal scrutiny quite they way they react, but instead seem to brush it off more; perhaps as "irrelevant".

    So instead, you're reacting to their reaction, which is their heroic Fi trying to slay the Ti demon. Fi, to your type, is the 7th place "trickster", which is the "bad child" complex. And that's exactly how you're reacting to them. Like these "bad children" disrupting the forum, "whining" (as you call it; a definite allusion to scolding a child) about MBTI, and then "parenting" these children with your Thinking, (and complaining back, with your own "childlike" Fe).

    Overall, many Fi users will overlook the impersonal categorization and enjoy the personal reflection the theory provides. Victor and now Tater; I'm not sure where exactly they're coming from, or what they want in all of this.
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  2. #162
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Somehow I feel like you're looking at me like a labrat...

    Use some Fe-wrapping already, dude

    I do like your contribution, btw
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  3. #163
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Sorry!
    But it was the perfect illustration! (And true to what I was saying, I was looking more at the aspects of the theory you were conveying, than you personally, in the "lab" analysis!)
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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  4. #164
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld

    Honestly, because Fi motivates more behaviors and opinions that annoy me than any other function.
    Its not just you I actually think this is true of all types. Even Fi types probably find Fi behaviors of other Fi's annoying!

  5. #165
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    And what function is it that says:

    "Great, we've discussed this for five thousand years, let's just move the *beep* on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Sorry!
    But it was the perfect illustration! (And true to what I was saying, I was looking more at the aspects of the theory you were conveying, than you personally, in the "lab" analysis!)
    Oh, great, finally someone who hasn't got their panties in a bunch over some retarded comments people are making to each other! "


    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    Its not just you I actually think this is true of all types. Even Fi types probably find Fi behaviors of other Fi's annoying!
    What he said, Fi user or not. ^^^ Oh, yeah, and Ti is pretty annoying as well.

    Bring on the Te folks. (The ones that say, "This isn't worth the bullshit.")
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  6. #166
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Did you ever consider that automatically associating extreme words with extreme emotion is an Fi-biased phenomenon?
    That's a good question. For me, words do carry emotions with them.

    For example, in real life, I rarely say the "f" word. When I do, it's like the atomic bomb has been dropped. People I have worked with for years fall off their chairs if I say it. Because I use it to mean something big. When you say it, perhaps you don't mean it so big. I can accept that. Still, that word has significant implications for me, as do some other words.

    When I think I see disrespect towards others using words, I find it hard to accept as good manners. Please don't take this as overly sensitive, because I'm really trying not to be. However, I think that a certain level of courtesy and restraint is important in our responses to each other, even though we may disagree.

    I did find myself taken aback that you called me a "hypocritical dolt"; told me all I added to your thread was "irrelevant bitching"; amongst other negatives. This didn't hurt my feelings, but did make me question your manners and wonder why you tried to discredit my opinion by applying negative attributes to me. So I poked around a bit. After all, you seem an intelligent young man; you have stronger counter-points to offer than just appearing ill-tempered.

    These words seemed over-the-top (as I posted before): paranoid, paranoid delusional Fi-ridden garbage, doom-mongering hysterics, DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUUUUMB!, bat shit crazy, overly sensitive, hostile, bullshit.

    I know they weren't applied to me personally, but still, they appear uncouth.

    But, that too is my perspective, as I tend to be exceedingly careful in what I say, as it's not my intention to offend anyone. I would simply hope you could extend to me the same courtesy. That makes debate much more enjoyable.

  7. #167
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    That's interesting. I also don't understand why people go all ape-shit over 'fuck.' Oops, I mean f*ck.
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  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    That's interesting. I also don't understand why people go all ape-shit over 'fuck.' Oops, I mean f*ck.
    What the fuck are you talking about?

  9. #169
    Senior Member Lurker's Avatar
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    Best posts ITT belong to toonia.
    OP sounds hysterical and illogical.
    Any type can be paranoid.
    MBTI's 16 type system is flawed and incomplete (as any attempt at holistic personality categorization will be).
    There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning The System.



    /end

  10. #170
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    What the fuck are you talking about?
    Well fuck a duck.

    Edit: Ferk a derk. (for the Fi users)
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

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