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  1. #131
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Durrr yeah, I already stated that most Fi doms don't see it this way--my point was simply that most people who make this sort of argument on the basis of "boohoo I hate being boxed in" are Fi doms. You just spent 3/4 of this post debunking a position I don't even agree with.
    No, most people who make that argument are not Fi-doms. Some are, but there are others who have made them who are not Fi-doms.

    Your OP makes too close an association between Fi the function and the behavior, and you ascribe feelings and motives behind the behavior of those individuals, and even imply them for Fi in general. Nice try on back peddling.

    As for your last paragraph, that's true--but Jaguar railed against MBTI on the basis that it lacks empirical evidence for its choice of categorizations, which is a far more Te-oriented position. (And I railed against him in equally vicious terminology!)
    Against HIM, an individual. In this thread, you're making a connection with an entire function to a specific behavior. I don't care if it's healthy or unhealthy Fi-doms you're referring to, the vast majority of Fi-doms, healthy or not, are the ones who set the pattern, the pattern being an embrace of MBTI, not a rant against it.

    Why do you always choose to focus on the negatives, especially when it comes to Fi-doms? If this is not about Fi, and is about a few select individuals, then why discuss it in terms of Fi?

    I'll freely admit that most Fi doms don't do this--but as I said, most people who make this particular argument from this position are Fi doms.
    I disagree. I don't see a trend in type for people making stupid rants against MBTI. That is your observation, which is faulty.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #132
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Did you ever consider that automatically associating extreme words with extreme emotion is an Fi-biased phenomenon?

    Of course I've come to expect it from INFPs--in fact, your histrionic responses encourage me to keep doing it. I don't intend to convince you of anything--just to entertain myself and others who are equally agitated with FiNe's tendency to imagine hostility when none is there.
    Some times, I think people see you post and automatically get insulted.
    If I worked it out, others will too.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #133
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Interesting. Why do you suppose it is that certain Fi-ers consider themselves too unique for typological categorization? I'm curious now. Why is the process of categorization considered dehumanizing?

    To be honest I have to give you credit for trying to make productive headway in most of these Fi threads. That's quite admirable.
    The process of categorization isn't dehumanizing. Fi-users as well categorize. It's a way to manage the world. The moment however it becomes dehumanizing is when you fail to categorize all the information, especially that relevant to humans, such as their individual quirks, which make them very much who they are. When you fail to recognize that despite your categorization, each human is still unique and you would need to know their background and their views on the world in order to judge perfectly which likely category suits them best. To not do so, to jump to conclusions and scream 'I have the answer, I know, I know, shut up, I know how you function!' is annoying and hurtful...as you yourself, ironically, have found to be true at the hands of Fi-users having a lazy or emotional moment, causing those prerequisites to go out the window. Unfortunately, Ti stops the moment it thinks it's figured out the system. And doesn't realize that that..well, that's only the beginning. The real work still follows, as that person can finetune your complex system in ways you haven't imagined. And unless you verify for real that you are in fact correct, you're an arrogant prick in my books.

    Don't get me wrong, I too get lazy and presumptuous, when recognizing signs in others that instantly make me go: ohh that's how they work. But I try very hard to check and recheck, before I file them away. They're humans. People. And there's more to them than you seem to give them credit for. Your loss, their pain. Lose-lose, imo.

    I appreciate your kind words, but those threads have really taught me one thing. People don't want to understand

    /withdraws.
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  4. #134
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I was gonna say before, it's been a while coming, INFP season. Like ENFJ season was going on too long or something.

    What's the common ground? None, really. But it might be instructive to observe: Fe, being tertiary in ENTPs, is important to ENTPs. And INFPs... so good at feeling.

    Tentative Conclusion:

    This all should probably be a lesson to anyone who thinks they're good at functions outside of their top four. Ya might be good at acting the part, but you don't got it. One can't help but wear their own pants.




    Hmmm, that seems a rather bellicose and confining conclusion... MBTI gives an opportunity for people to own up to their preferences and--perhaps--address conflict. Or perhaps not. Is it incumbent upon people to address conflict? Can they even ever succeed, given that they'll be quite naturally using their own preferences first... Should they bend to others? Should they even care? Dunno.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #135
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    No, most people who make that argument are not Fi-doms. Some are, but there are others who have made them who are not Fi-doms.
    Sure, lots of different types make anti-typology arguments, but most of the people I've seen make that argument for that particular reason have been Fi doms. I guess you're not going to believe me on this count, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Your OP makes too close an association between Fi the function and the behavior, and you ascribe feelings and motives behind the behavior of those individuals, and even imply them for Fi in general. Nice try on back peddling.
    Actually, as I and others have pointed out several times now, the only people I even addressed were paranoid Fi doms. If you're not paranoid, I dunno why you think this applies to you.



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Against HIM, an individual. In this thread, you're making a connection with an entire function to a specific behavior. I don't care if it's healthy or unhealthy Fi-doms you're referring to, the vast majority of Fi-doms, healthy or not, are the ones who set the pattern, the pattern being an embrace of MBTI, not a rant against it.
    That's close to what I said, but not quite.

    I didn't say that most people against MBTI are Fi doms; I said that most people who claim that typology is useless on the basis that they are too unique to be categorized are Fi doms. It makes sense, given Fi's emphasis on self-expression of personal individuality.

    Lots of other people think typology is useless, but typically for different reasons. Lots of Te users dislike it for the lack of empirical evidence. Lots of Ni users dislike the implicit assumptions they think it makes about behavioral trends. Lots of Se users dislike it for its abstract theoretical nature without any clear practical application, and so on...

    But the position that typology is useless because it squelches self-expression clearly reflects the Fi-oriented values described above.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Why do you always choose to focus on the negatives, especially when it comes to Fi-doms? If this is not about Fi, and is about a few select individuals, then why discuss it in terms of Fi?
    Honestly, because Fi motivates more behaviors and opinions that annoy me than any other function.

    This is not about rants against typology in general, but rather about one specific reason for one specific type of anti-typology rant, which seems quite frequently motivated by Fi.


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I disagree. I don't see a trend in type for people making stupid rants against MBTI. That is your observation, which is faulty.
    I don't either--I see a trend in the reasons people make these rants. Lots of people of different types do it, but their reasoning for it will usually have something to do with the values their preferred functions hold in high regard, and this particular reason for disliking typology (belief that it is threatening to personal individuality and self-expression) is clearly associated with Fi values.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #136
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    The process of categorization isn't dehumanizing. Fi-users as well categorize. It's a way to manage the world. The moment however it becomes dehumanizing is when you fail to categorize all the information, especially that relevant to humans. When you fail to recognize that despite your categorization, each human is still unique and you would need to know their background and their views on the world in order to judge perfectly which likely category suits them best. To not do so, to jump to conclusions and scream 'I have the answer, I know, I know, shut up, I know how you function!' is annoying and hurtful...as you yourself, ironically, have found to be true at the hands of Fi-users having a lazy or emotional moment, causing those prerequisites to go out the window. Unfortunately, Ti stops the moment it thinks it's figured out the system. And doesn't realize that that..well, that's only the beginning. The real work still follows, as that person can finetune your complex system in ways you haven't imagined. And unless you verify for real that you are in fact correct, you're an arrogant prick in my books.

    Don't get me wrong, I too get lazy and presumptuous, when recognizing signs in others that instantly make me go: ohh that's how they work. But I try very hard to check and recheck, before I file them away. They're humans. People. And there's more to them than you seem to give them credit for. Your loss, their pain. Lose-lose, imo.

    I appreciate your kind words, but those threads have really taught me one thing. People don't want to understand

    /withdraws.
    You've got some interesting points here. Indeed, the categorization is only the beginning of truly knowing someone--but that doesn't negate the usefulness of the categorization itself.

    I don't recall ever claiming to know everything about anyone. It would be ideal if we could know everything about a person before passing any judgment on him/her, but unfortunately we have to work with limited and incomplete information in everyday life, so we generalize and jump to conclusions for practicality's sake.

    I can see why that comes across as dehumanizing at times, but I think this is at least partially a result of misinterpretation of what typology actually means with its descriptions. It doesn't just create a grocery list of behaviors that everyone in a given type must necessarily follow; rather, it describes the methods by which people derive their value systems....so being the same type as someone else doesn't mean you have to agree with them or behave the same way as them; it only means you tend to be most proficient in similar methods of information processing.

    Of course it's upsetting when someone judges us inaccurately based on incomplete information--but it's also impractical to suspend judgment until such a time as we have complete information, because we will never really have that.

    As for Ti and stopping when it thinks it's figured out the system--hopefully Ne (or Se) will continue to take in new information that forces Ti to amend its systems whenever information that contradicts the previous conclusion is introduced. That's pretty much how most TPs that I know operate--we observe external patterns, build internal rule systems to explain them, and then repeat. Every time new information comes up that calls the current understanding into question, we add another degree of conditional complexity to the rule system so that it comes closer to reflecting reality.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #137
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    *smiles*

    Agreed and understood. However, then refrain from making claims about people before verifying. That's what stings. You're dealing after all with people, not facts and therefore feelings will be hurt if you go about it the same way. I've had plenty people asking me to make a judgement on them, tell them who they are a such. I refuse to do so till I've tested and retested, till I find that I actually am unlikely to have missed anything (in the field they're asking about). It frustrates a lot of them, and sometimes I'll tell them my preliminary findings under big gigantic disclaimers, knowing full well I'm essentially guessing at this point. And then when I feel I'm relatively sure about what they're like, I'll gladly give an analysis. And even then I'll still use disclaimers coz you never know what you've missed.

    I postpone judgement on people as long as I can for this very reason. Of course I keep the impressions they've made in the back of my mind and work with them, i'd be foolish not to. But I keep in mind I might just not know what their motivation for it. And therefore, before I know that motivation, I do *not* judge. I also find that once I know it, I often have no reason to judge, 90 percent of the time *because* I understand so well where they're coming from at that point.

    I myself have no problem being judged by others, on one condition: that they've shown clearly that they understand how and why I do things. That there is no miscommunication there. If after that, you still disagree with my behavior, I will gladly accept that and accomodate you, and have no qualms with your judgement on that. But before that happens, your half-assed judgement is going to make me roll my eyes and annoy the shit out of me. And unfortunately I have a need to make myself understood, which leads to frustration when the other won't even hear me.

    That, to me, is the root of these Fi-threads and is the thing that gives me just a massive head ache (and I am talking about both sides now, not just Ti-users, but also Fi-users getting baited in tossing out untested conclusions about others though I understand better where that comes from).

    It screams incompetence to me and I have no patience for people who claim to know stuff when their conclusions smell of half-assing it, especially when it comes to people as it is such a delicate field. Add to that the arrogance of claiming that you (=general you) know me so well you don't even have to listen to where I think you might be wrong and I'm done with you. Sounds fair?
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  8. #138
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  9. #139
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Anyone is free to express any opinion he likes. I won't even whine to mods that my thread is being "derailed", because I think that's kind of dumb.

    Way to assume a bunch of dumb bullshit that I didn't even say.

    Exercising my right to criticize the posts of others doesn't imply that I don't think they have the right to be posting.

    Try to work on that reading comprehension a bit, hm?
    I derailed a thread? Awesome. A job well done today.

    Can I derail some more? Pwetty pwease???? *looks imploringly* You know you want me to!
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  10. #140

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    What is this all about then?

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