Why MBTI is Death for Society

[entropie]

To me the phrase "MBTI is a system" explained it all, cause systems dont work with people. The most basic example in that regards is trieing to define a person that has no mental illnesses or a "normal" person.

A student of psychology once told me there are two ways to deal with knowledge concerning the human psyche. The first is you become an engineer of perfection, who seeks out every single flaw he ever learned about in the human psyche and generates role model understandings or systems to explain to himself why people are doing things, what their motivations are.

The other type of psychologist is the more relaxed, reflective one. He has accepted that people have flaws and will never fit any system, therefore he tries to give them examples from his own experience or the experience he learned through his studies.

One may argue now, who has the better approach.

Back in the days C.G. Jung made his archetypes, he used the same tools as the nazis. Meaning the nazis had their own typology system, which did analyze and categorize people like that and Jung tried to present them with a more colourful, versatile onlook on the human psyche. To show them people aint made for war only. This was a very brave attempt, nevertheless if you look at his archetypes nowadays, it uses the same analyzing and categorizing methods like the nazis.

To me mbti didnt bring much harm. It really helped me to gain a better understanding of my surroundings and to understand their motivations better. But when I had really fun with it, I overdid it to some extent. My overdoing was i.e. I couldnt decide what type I am. And in the end I asked myself, what for, I can be all types. And nowadays I choosed entp because it fits my nickname.

And that's basically what I wanted to say: if you can use mbti as a way to get in better contact with your surroundings, it helped you. But then you have to stop and not overuse it, if you are not a big fan of over overanalyzing people and rather take them as they are. Any other approach can lead you trieing to change people for the better, cause you think they for example dont behave very intp like in that special moment.

In Europe mbti is considered wrong in the therapists world. And dont ask me for more info on that, I am no therapist nor a big speaker.

Another fact is, the base of all scientific research is to question estblished truths over and over and over again. Therefore I wouldnt call it Fi doom-mongering.

Another thing is, I am a bit sad about people teaming up and collectively attack the op starter for not following general consensus. That is, sorry guys, a very american thing. I hope you may learn some day that there are never wrong questions, just dumb answers.

 

[Litvyak]

I hope you may learn some day that there are never wrong questions, just dumb answers.

There are dumb questions which can't be answered, because they are based on wrong data or values indifferent from the question. If the parts do not make any sense, the whole also won't make any sense. If the very fundament the question is based on can't be accepted, what else is there to discuss?

Maslow's hierarchy of needs, wtf? It is a quasi-intellectual ranting for the Op to feel that he/she is just another special, unique little snowflake amongst stupid meatbags such as you and me.

As for your theory, why do six-legged monkeys always drink kerosene?

 

[entropie]

There are dumb questions which can't be answered, because they are based on wrong data or values indifferent from the question. If the parts do not make any sense, the whole also won't make any sense. If the very fundament the question is based on can't be accepted, what else is there to discuss?

Maslow's hierarchy of needs, wtf? It is a quasi-intellectual ranting for the Op to feel that he/she is just another special, unique little snowflake amongst stupid meatbags such as you and me.

As for your theory, why do six-legged monkeys always drink kerosene?

You may rationalize for you any idealism there might be.

Wont work with me.

 

[Litvyak]

Guess I'll have to wait for my answer, then... :/

Cheers.

 

[entropie]

No, you had your answer: I have none.

I have a different way to look at things. For example do I think there are no dumb questions; wrong data doesnt make a question dumb from the start.

And who Maslow is I dont know.

 

[Laurie]

Don't hate me for bumping this.

I just want to say I'm very glad to have found MBTI, growing up in a family without NF's I did not fit in at ALL. I was some kind of alien species. I really enjoy being able to find that there are other people similar to me.

I'm glad to have found this forum, too, because I see things everyday that are posted that really resonate with me. So while it's sad that MBTI is evil and controlling the masses, (<-- sarcasm, in case you are one of the masses who doesn't catch it) this single mass is very happy to have a tool that helps me identify similarities with others that I didn't realize were there.

 

[Halla74]

The MBTI segments the mind into 8 pieces and 16 more pieces for each archetype. We call it "self-actualization", though the only thing to be actualized is a projected system. Those who inspect the system are too slothful to inspect themselves; so they wallow in self-stagnation - attempting to improve the system rather than themselves.

Tater. Any system of thought, code of beliefs, or even a pure natural science can be misused, abused, and be of more harm than good.

Religion has screwed up way more people's minds than MBTI could ever hope to. Science has been used to commit heinous crimes. Wacko nut jobs like Jim Jones had his followers drink poisoned Kool-Aid, as did the followers of the Heaven's Gate cult.

Methinks you are unecessarily villifying MBTI. The people who stagnate their own growth as a result of putting too much faith in MBTI are responsible for their own lack of self actualization, as are those that place too much faith in any other method of thinking or system of beliefs.

 

[Kra]

Quite frankly, for something to be a "danger" to society, it would need to be a little more widespread than MBTI is. Perhaps this is purely my own personal experience, but the only other person that has spoken of MBTI to me (outside of the internet) was a college career guidance counselor. That just doesn't scream of "deathly" proportions to me...

Likewise, no system is beyond reform, should we find the need to do so. We, as humans, like to classify and compartmentalize the world around us, why would we treat ourselves any differently?

MBTI, enneagram, and all other typologies are just systems to help find and understand who we are as individuals. Sure, if you become dogmatic and unquestioning of it, than you'll probably be doing more harm than good. But, if you take it for what it is, a theoretical system, you're probably going to gain more perspective than you will lose.

 

[entropie]

I just want to say I'm very glad to have found MBTI, growing up in a family without NF's I did not fit in at ALL. I was some kind of alien species. I really enjoy being able to find that there are other people similar to me.

That's the thing that kept me with mbti aswell and what I am glad for.

Only thing I havent decided on yet is if I am just insane or different in mbti terms

 

[Laurie]

You seem totally normal to me, ent. Sorry

 

[garbage]

this thread


I think any counter-argument to this whole business boils down to "MBTI is merely descriptive."

Any sort of extrapolation or prediction that one might want to perform with the tool is misguided, because the tool is not scientific. And that sort of misuse is the cause of most of the problems that have been cited in this thread.

So let's say that I take the MBTI and my result is INTP, when in reality I am an INFJ. The time I spend as an INTP is spent improving upon my abilities as one; so I may be akin to a shark charade as an alligator. We all know sharks can't breath out of water.

On the other hand, you could have been living your life like an alligator, when, in actuality, you're really a shark and didn't know it. You may have been trying to breathe out of water and struggling with it all along.

If you've been swimming upstream in such a fashion your entire life, any tool that illuminates why that might be is immensely useful.

One can identify themselves with any individual construct under the sun. Have you not heard of the Forer effect?

The Forer effect occurs when one recollects experiences and compares them with a given description. Afterward, this person will associate the description with the self.

Because we're all human, we all will identify with parts of many of the type descriptions. But there are some that we clearly identify with more than others.

We're more well-rounded than the archetypes make us seem, but.. well, they're archetypes. We only approximate them at best.

There is never any explicit "better-than, worse-than" chart. However, if you read between the lines, you will find that your "type" is predisposed to specific behaviors. These behaviors are separate from others, and it is inherently impossible for one to be both equal and separate.

Different types are going to look at other types differently, but that doesn't take away from the concept that MBTI preferences are equal and separate. In fact, that's a fundamental tenet of the theory.

 

[Totenkindly]

Also, on behalf of the SPs and SJs (less so): using Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs as a comparison, is quite insulting to these two temperments who are then "wallowing" at the bottom of the pyramid, having yet to achieve the top tier of self-actualization, etc. As if, the higher level needs only exists in NTs and NFs. And, since, one cannot get to the top of the pyramid without having all the bottom needs met, this makes NFs and NTs, some idealized "healthy" humans, implicitly then having all the bottom tiers' needs met, and the SJs and SPs are stuck at the bottom.

I agree with your reasoning. It's bs for the S's, IMO, if one approaches it that way.

But I don't think Maslow's Heirarchy was ever meant to be combined with MBTI. He wasn't thinking about personality. He was simply saying something that actually is true in terms of what frees people up to consider things beyond chasing after their daily requirements for survival.... as we know from reading diaries and studying the lives of people who are forced into survivalist situations.

People cannot afford to sit around and think about moral or spiritual dev unless their basic needs are first considered. Maslow believed, apparently, that human beings needed more than their basic needs in order to be actualized and reach their potential and feel fulfillment in life. So there are foundational needs to be met, and then eventually people can move up into more interpersonal and intrapersonal behaviors and introspects to really grasp themselves and have purpose in life.

I think it's wrong to try to tie this pyramid to MBTI, if only for the obvious reason that all people regardless of type have the ability and (and often desire) to go through all the stages of the pyramid. Where type plays into things is how these desires are fulfilled and expressed higher up.

Finding common words in other theories that match with the words used in MBTI, etc., lingo, is kinda reaching...a lot. Death to wild analogies of MBTI.

it's just the sort of thinking that is at the core of many pseudo-sciences -- unrelated correlations that are read as causations or true connections.

Quite frankly, for something to be a "danger" to society, it would need to be a little more widespread than MBTI is. Perhaps this is purely my own personal experience, but the only other person that has spoken of MBTI to me (outside of the internet) was a college career guidance counselor. That just doesn't scream of "deathly" proportions to me...

it's not.

For a few who actually study it on a theory level, it's a topic of interest; for the majority of people (mostly younger generations), it's become just one more internet fad.

Few people sit around and think about their lives all the time in terms of MBTI. Religion can be far more devastating. People (and all SORTS of people) take it far more seriously.

Another thing is, I am a bit sad about people teaming up and collectively attack the op starter for not following general consensus. That is, sorry guys, a very american thing. I hope you may learn some day that there are never wrong questions, just dumb answers.

I find it rather insulting you make blanket assumptions that anyone who disagrees with a particular viewpoint is doing so merely to maintain status quo.

Your views here really aren't any different than the attitudes you're complaining about, and if I followed your logic, I'd now be attacking European logic/behavior for being presumptuous, thoughtless, disconnected, etc., but that would be irrational as well.

 

[Prototype]

The MBTI segments the mind into 8 pieces and 16 more pieces for each archetype. We call it "self-actualization", though the only thing to be actualized is a projected system. Those who inspect the system are too slothful to inspect themselves; so they wallow in self-stagnation - attempting to improve the system rather than themselves...


... Likewise, each archetype worship themselves; not themselves per se, but an idolized version of themselves. The NFs with the NFs, the NTs with the NTs, the SJs with the SJs, and the SPs with the SPs...

... Consequentially, those who worship MBTI become confused and convoluted like the segments of the brain. So when each segment worships itself, the societal brain deteriorates and falls like Rome did after its warlords succumbed to greed...

... To avoid this depraved and false self-worship, we must reconcile ourselves and do away with the dialect of MBTI -- as the 8 functions are like the 8 colonies.

Just like how

So, are you suggesting that MBTI is the alpha pyramid scheme?

 

[PeaceBaby]

Another fact is, the base of all scientific research is to question established truths over and over and over again. Therefore I wouldnt call it Fi doom-mongering.

A very valid point entropie; well said.

I just want to say I'm very glad to have found MBTI, growing up in a family without NF's I did not fit in at ALL.

I feel similarly, elaur.

But I don't think Maslow's Heirarchy was ever meant to be combined with MBTI. He wasn't thinking about personality. He was simply saying something that actually is true in terms of what frees people up to consider things beyond chasing after their daily requirements for survival.... as we know from reading diaries and studying the lives of people who are forced into survivalist situations.

+1

For a few who actually study it on a theory level, it's a topic of interest; for the majority of people (mostly younger generations), it's become just one more internet fad.

Few people sit around and think about their lives all the time in terms of MBTI. Religion can be far more devastating. People (and all SORTS of people) take it far more seriously.

Good points and @bolded: agree with that I do. BUT, when I read people here making posts such as "I would never date an ESTJ" or "ENFJ's are SO controlling" or "INFP's are just EMO BOMBS" I do feel some concern at this misapplication of the tool.

And within this context, I do think Mystic and Victor have a point, despite the fact that the way they choose to share it seems to drive some people here wild. It's not just some "histrionic" Fi reaction (why generalize it like that? There are plenty of rational NF responses in this thread.)

Did anyone ever stop to think that both Mystic and Victor present their viewpoints in this way JUST to GET reactions? Why keep feeding them if it drives you crazy? Honestly, it's like you think you don't have buttons to push, when frankly, it is clearly evident you do.

 

[JoSunshine]

So, Tater...I get your point. I went out with a guy 3 times who was VERY into MBTI and it seemed not only that he was living his life by an ENFP script (which to him was the bestest of the best), but also shoving people in to their type "script". I had to start saying to him after every sentence, "...and it's not because I am an ENFJ, it because I am Jo." It was insanity. For him was MBTI dangerous...yes. For your average person...I don’t think so. Just like lots of good things, people (desperate people, disturbed people, unhealthy people) can find ways to misuse MBTI to serve their purposes (to prove they are superior, unique, as a defense to keep them from being hurt by "bad" types, blah, blah). Perhaps this is something you did and now you think you are saving all from ourselves?

On the note of superiority, I find your comments incredibly contradictory. You speak of how MBTI is a way for people to feel superior. I think perhaps, you are the superior one, my friend. Your post are riddled with the word "should". People should do this, people should not do that. You are making an assumption that all people should be like you. Tsk, tsk. You are assuming that your way of being is superior to others. You take for granted that people think, feel, live and react as you do. Not the case. There are those of us who can responsibly and usefully apply MBTI to awareness of self and others and use it as a tool for growth. If it is not working for you, then perhaps you can find something that does.

There was a comment about attacking the OP. I feel (be it American or not) that when you condescend to people, it is an expected reaction. Now, if you wrote, this is how I feel about MBTI, this is how I think it effects people and society, what's your opinion? And then been open to hearing and more importantly understanding that everyone is not like you and therefore capable of having a different experience, the response would have been much different.

I find your posts very narcissistic, to say the least. Feel what you want to feel, believe what you want to believe, but realize you are not an authority...you are just a regular person like the rest of us. You can choose to sit on your throne and separate yourself from the rest of us (both in this forum and in real life) with your doctrine of how things “should” be, but just know that when you elevate yourself to that level of superiority, it is very isolating…it is lonely being king.

 

[Mole]

Group Delusion

The question is -

Is MBTI true?

And as there has been no double blind experiment in seventy years, there is no evidence MBTI is true.

And yet most here act as though MBTI were true.

This is the same as believing astrology were true, or that Zeus of Poseidon exist, or that alchemy can transmute lead into gold, or believing in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

It is plain that MBTI is a very large, self reinforcing, group delusion.

And it is a delusion that not only meets the needs of this group, but the needs of powerful parts of society.

So this would explain the tenacity with which this delusion is held.

 

[Prototype]

The question is -

Is MBTI true?

And as there has been no double blind experiment in seventy years, there is no evidence MBTI is true.

And yet most here act as though MBTI were true.

This is the same as believing astrology were true, or that Zeus of Poseidon exist, or that alchemy can transmute lead into gold, or believing in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

It is plain that MBTI is a very large, self reinforcing, group delusion.

And it is a delusion that not only meets the needs of this group, but the needs of powerful parts of society.

So this would explain the tenacity with which this delusion is held.

Is the science of Psychology true?

 

[KLessard]

Who is that guy?

 

[Totenkindly]

Good points and @bolded: agree with that I do. BUT, when I read people here making posts such as "I would never date an ESTJ" or "ENFJ's are SO controlling" or "INFP's are just EMO BOMBS" I do feel some concern at this misapplication of the tool.

True. I roll my eyes when I read stuff like that and usually feel annoyed but sometimes hold my tongue or tone things down because i consider it just a waystation most people pass through; there are many here who are just entering the adult world and learning about themselves and long-term relationships, and I think those misassumptions are part of the process, so I try not to react too much out of my instinctive annoyance.

The ideas should be challenged, though. It's just that many people don't accept the correction easily until they get some life experience first.

Did anyone ever stop to think that both Mystic and Victor present their viewpoints in this way JUST to GET reactions? Why keep feeding them if it drives you crazy? Honestly, it's like you think you don't have buttons to push, when frankly, it is clearly evident you do.

I've learned to pretty much just ignore some people's posts, if offered in a particular vein. If my goal is to dialog and they are more just like a "transmission tower" who only want people who tune into their ideas and don't actually want to discuss anything... it's a bad investment to continue the discourse.

 

[MacGuffin]

Who is that guy?

Italian Spiderman!