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  1. #91
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    I think any counter-argument to this whole business boils down to "MBTI is merely descriptive."

    Any sort of extrapolation or prediction that one might want to perform with the tool is misguided, because the tool is not scientific. And that sort of misuse is the cause of most of the problems that have been cited in this thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    So let's say that I take the MBTI and my result is INTP, when in reality I am an INFJ. The time I spend as an INTP is spent improving upon my abilities as one; so I may be akin to a shark charade as an alligator. We all know sharks can't breath out of water.
    On the other hand, you could have been living your life like an alligator, when, in actuality, you're really a shark and didn't know it. You may have been trying to breathe out of water and struggling with it all along.

    If you've been swimming upstream in such a fashion your entire life, any tool that illuminates why that might be is immensely useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    One can identify themselves with any individual construct under the sun. Have you not heard of the Forer effect?

    The Forer effect occurs when one recollects experiences and compares them with a given description. Afterward, this person will associate the description with the self.
    Because we're all human, we all will identify with parts of many of the type descriptions. But there are some that we clearly identify with more than others.

    We're more well-rounded than the archetypes make us seem, but.. well, they're archetypes. We only approximate them at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    There is never any explicit "better-than, worse-than" chart. However, if you read between the lines, you will find that your "type" is predisposed to specific behaviors. These behaviors are separate from others, and it is inherently impossible for one to be both equal and separate.
    Different types are going to look at other types differently, but that doesn't take away from the concept that MBTI preferences are equal and separate. In fact, that's a fundamental tenet of the theory.

  2. #92
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post


    Also, on behalf of the SPs and SJs (less so): using Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs as a comparison, is quite insulting to these two temperments who are then "wallowing" at the bottom of the pyramid, having yet to achieve the top tier of self-actualization, etc. As if, the higher level needs only exists in NTs and NFs. And, since, one cannot get to the top of the pyramid without having all the bottom needs met, this makes NFs and NTs, some idealized "healthy" humans, implicitly then having all the bottom tiers' needs met, and the SJs and SPs are stuck at the bottom.
    I agree with your reasoning. It's bs for the S's, IMO, if one approaches it that way.

    But I don't think Maslow's Heirarchy was ever meant to be combined with MBTI. He wasn't thinking about personality. He was simply saying something that actually is true in terms of what frees people up to consider things beyond chasing after their daily requirements for survival.... as we know from reading diaries and studying the lives of people who are forced into survivalist situations.

    People cannot afford to sit around and think about moral or spiritual dev unless their basic needs are first considered. Maslow believed, apparently, that human beings needed more than their basic needs in order to be actualized and reach their potential and feel fulfillment in life. So there are foundational needs to be met, and then eventually people can move up into more interpersonal and intrapersonal behaviors and introspects to really grasp themselves and have purpose in life.

    I think it's wrong to try to tie this pyramid to MBTI, if only for the obvious reason that all people regardless of type have the ability and (and often desire) to go through all the stages of the pyramid. Where type plays into things is how these desires are fulfilled and expressed higher up.

    Finding common words in other theories that match with the words used in MBTI, etc., lingo, is kinda reaching...a lot. Death to wild analogies of MBTI.
    it's just the sort of thinking that is at the core of many pseudo-sciences -- unrelated correlations that are read as causations or true connections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kra View Post
    Quite frankly, for something to be a "danger" to society, it would need to be a little more widespread than MBTI is. Perhaps this is purely my own personal experience, but the only other person that has spoken of MBTI to me (outside of the internet) was a college career guidance counselor. That just doesn't scream of "deathly" proportions to me...
    it's not.

    For a few who actually study it on a theory level, it's a topic of interest; for the majority of people (mostly younger generations), it's become just one more internet fad.

    Few people sit around and think about their lives all the time in terms of MBTI. Religion can be far more devastating. People (and all SORTS of people) take it far more seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Another thing is, I am a bit sad about people teaming up and collectively attack the op starter for not following general consensus. That is, sorry guys, a very american thing. I hope you may learn some day that there are never wrong questions, just dumb answers.
    I find it rather insulting you make blanket assumptions that anyone who disagrees with a particular viewpoint is doing so merely to maintain status quo.

    Your views here really aren't any different than the attitudes you're complaining about, and if I followed your logic, I'd now be attacking European logic/behavior for being presumptuous, thoughtless, disconnected, etc., but that would be irrational as well.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #93
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    The MBTI segments the mind into 8 pieces and 16 more pieces for each archetype. We call it "self-actualization", though the only thing to be actualized is a projected system. Those who inspect the system are too slothful to inspect themselves; so they wallow in self-stagnation - attempting to improve the system rather than themselves...


    ... Likewise, each archetype worship themselves; not themselves per se, but an idolized version of themselves. The NFs with the NFs, the NTs with the NTs, the SJs with the SJs, and the SPs with the SPs...

    ... Consequentially, those who worship MBTI become confused and convoluted like the segments of the brain. So when each segment worships itself, the societal brain deteriorates and falls like Rome did after its warlords succumbed to greed...

    ... To avoid this depraved and false self-worship, we must reconcile ourselves and do away with the dialect of MBTI -- as the 8 functions are like the 8 colonies.

    Just like how


    So, are you suggesting that MBTI is the alpha pyramid scheme?
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Another fact is, the base of all scientific research is to question established truths over and over and over again. Therefore I wouldnt call it Fi doom-mongering.
    A very valid point entropie; well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    I just want to say I'm very glad to have found MBTI, growing up in a family without NF's I did not fit in at ALL.
    I feel similarly, elaur.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    But I don't think Maslow's Heirarchy was ever meant to be combined with MBTI. He wasn't thinking about personality. He was simply saying something that actually is true in terms of what frees people up to consider things beyond chasing after their daily requirements for survival.... as we know from reading diaries and studying the lives of people who are forced into survivalist situations.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    For a few who actually study it on a theory level, it's a topic of interest; for the majority of people (mostly younger generations), it's become just one more internet fad.

    Few people sit around and think about their lives all the time in terms of MBTI. Religion can be far more devastating. People (and all SORTS of people) take it far more seriously.
    Good points and @bolded: agree with that I do. BUT, when I read people here making posts such as "I would never date an ESTJ" or "ENFJ's are SO controlling" or "INFP's are just EMO BOMBS" I do feel some concern at this misapplication of the tool.

    And within this context, I do think Mystic and Victor have a point, despite the fact that the way they choose to share it seems to drive some people here wild. It's not just some "histrionic" Fi reaction (why generalize it like that? There are plenty of rational NF responses in this thread.)

    Did anyone ever stop to think that both Mystic and Victor present their viewpoints in this way JUST to GET reactions? Why keep feeding them if it drives you crazy? Honestly, it's like you think you don't have buttons to push, when frankly, it is clearly evident you do.

  5. #95
    That's my name biotch! JoSunshine's Avatar
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    So, Tater...I get your point. I went out with a guy 3 times who was VERY into MBTI and it seemed not only that he was living his life by an ENFP script (which to him was the bestest of the best), but also shoving people in to their type "script". I had to start saying to him after every sentence, "...and it's not because I am an ENFJ, it because I am Jo." It was insanity. For him was MBTI dangerous...yes. For your average person...I dont think so. Just like lots of good things, people (desperate people, disturbed people, unhealthy people) can find ways to misuse MBTI to serve their purposes (to prove they are superior, unique, as a defense to keep them from being hurt by "bad" types, blah, blah). Perhaps this is something you did and now you think you are saving all from ourselves?

    On the note of superiority, I find your comments incredibly contradictory. You speak of how MBTI is a way for people to feel superior. I think perhaps, you are the superior one, my friend. Your post are riddled with the word "should". People should do this, people should not do that. You are making an assumption that all people should be like you. Tsk, tsk. You are assuming that your way of being is superior to others. You take for granted that people think, feel, live and react as you do. Not the case. There are those of us who can responsibly and usefully apply MBTI to awareness of self and others and use it as a tool for growth. If it is not working for you, then perhaps you can find something that does.

    There was a comment about attacking the OP. I feel (be it American or not) that when you condescend to people, it is an expected reaction. Now, if you wrote, this is how I feel about MBTI, this is how I think it effects people and society, what's your opinion? And then been open to hearing and more importantly understanding that everyone is not like you and therefore capable of having a different experience, the response would have been much different.

    I find your posts very narcissistic, to say the least. Feel what you want to feel, believe what you want to believe, but realize you are not an authority...you are just a regular person like the rest of us. You can choose to sit on your throne and separate yourself from the rest of us (both in this forum and in real life) with your doctrine of how things should be, but just know that when you elevate yourself to that level of superiority, it is very isolatingit is lonely being king.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. " - Dr. Seuss
    I can't spell...get over it

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    Feeling (F) 55.56%............Thinking (T) 44.44%
    Judging (J) 51.43%............Perceiving (P) 48.57%

  6. #96
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    Thumbs down Group Delusion

    The question is -

    Is MBTI true?

    And as there has been no double blind experiment in seventy years, there is no evidence MBTI is true.

    And yet most here act as though MBTI were true.

    This is the same as believing astrology were true, or that Zeus of Poseidon exist, or that alchemy can transmute lead into gold, or believing in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

    It is plain that MBTI is a very large, self reinforcing, group delusion.

    And it is a delusion that not only meets the needs of this group, but the needs of powerful parts of society.

    So this would explain the tenacity with which this delusion is held.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The question is -

    Is MBTI true?

    And as there has been no double blind experiment in seventy years, there is no evidence MBTI is true.

    And yet most here act as though MBTI were true.

    This is the same as believing astrology were true, or that Zeus of Poseidon exist, or that alchemy can transmute lead into gold, or believing in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

    It is plain that MBTI is a very large, self reinforcing, group delusion.

    And it is a delusion that not only meets the needs of this group, but the needs of powerful parts of society.


    So this would explain the tenacity with which this delusion is held.
    Is the science of Psychology true?
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  8. #98
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Who is that guy?

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Good points and @bolded: agree with that I do. BUT, when I read people here making posts such as "I would never date an ESTJ" or "ENFJ's are SO controlling" or "INFP's are just EMO BOMBS" I do feel some concern at this misapplication of the tool.
    True. I roll my eyes when I read stuff like that and usually feel annoyed but sometimes hold my tongue or tone things down because i consider it just a waystation most people pass through; there are many here who are just entering the adult world and learning about themselves and long-term relationships, and I think those misassumptions are part of the process, so I try not to react too much out of my instinctive annoyance.

    The ideas should be challenged, though. It's just that many people don't accept the correction easily until they get some life experience first.

    Did anyone ever stop to think that both Mystic and Victor present their viewpoints in this way JUST to GET reactions? Why keep feeding them if it drives you crazy? Honestly, it's like you think you don't have buttons to push, when frankly, it is clearly evident you do.
    I've learned to pretty much just ignore some people's posts, if offered in a particular vein. If my goal is to dialog and they are more just like a "transmission tower" who only want people who tune into their ideas and don't actually want to discuss anything... it's a bad investment to continue the discourse.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Who is that guy?
    Italian Spiderman!

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