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  1. #31
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    Thanks.

    Any good way to remember what the functions actually are in terms that fit them all or is that just memorizing?
    You mean like a mnemonic or something?

    And it really suprises me how often there are people here (probably the strong majority in fact) who don't know the basic cognitive process layout. It's the foundation, or the skeleton, or think of some other generic integral object. The people out on the big, wild internetz that are supposed to be informing folks about the MBTI are sucking at it.

    My own amendment to this original system, however, is that I've been skeptical of the tertiary and auxiliary processes for a while now. Anyhow, that's a whole other story.

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  2. #32
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You mean like a mnemonic or something?
    Good gracious, no. Shoot me before I use that.

    I was wondering if there is anything similar to finding what functions you have. I can memorize them, eventually, but it's more interesting to have a common thread to learn.

  3. #33
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    Thanks.

    Any good way to remember what the functions actually are in terms that fit them all or is that just memorizing?
    It involves some memorizing, but it's not too hard if you just remember that extroverted functions are objective and introverted functions are subjective (yes, even Ti.)

    Extroverted functions are defined according to the environment and dependent upon feedback from objective external conditions.

    Introverted functions are defined according to the self and validated according to purely subjective internal standards.

    So if you have a general idea of what S, N, T and F mean, this should give you a reasonably good idea of how the different forms work.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #34
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    Thanks.

    Any good way to remember what the functions actually are in terms that fit them all or is that just memorizing?
    I remember them like this:

    T is objective, F is subjective.
    (Something)e uses criteria relevant to the outside world, (something)i doesn't.
    Te = objective + external criteria = goal-oriented
    Fe = subjective + external criteria = people-oriented
    Ti = objective + internal criteria = consistency
    Fi = subjective + internal criteria = passion

    S is concrete and details, N is abstract and associations
    (Something)e seeks new information, (something)i uses experience.
    Se = concrete + new = alert and attentive
    Ne = abstract + new = inquisitive and imaginative
    Si = concrete + experience = tradition and how-to-do
    Ni = abstract + experience = concepts and how-to-learn

    Of course, I also use the "function guys". To me, it's quite easy to remember eg. Se as the boy scout with the magnifying glass, drawing your attention to all sorts of observations.
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  5. #35
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    I remember them like this:

    T is objective, F is subjective.
    (Something)e uses criteria relevant to the outside world, (something)i doesn't.
    Te = objective + external criteria = goal-oriented
    Fe = subjective + external criteria = people-oriented
    Ti = objective + internal criteria = consistency
    Fi = subjective + internal criteria = passion
    This is close and a good effort, but not quite. You've inaccurately associated F with subjectivity and T with objectivity, when it's actually introverted functions that are subjective (i.e., dependent upon the subject--the self) and extroverted functions that are objective (i.e., dependent upon the object--outside the self.)
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #36
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Actually, both T/F and i/e have been associated with objective/subjective.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  7. #37
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Actually, both T/F and i/e have been associated with objective/subjective.
    Sure, but a quick look at the definitions of the words "subjective" and "objective" will show us that the former is incorrect. Just because someone has associated the two doesn't mean that someone knew what he was talking about.

    Ti is no more objective than Fi because its method of judgment doesn't change with external variables. It is wholly self-contained within the subject--this cannot possibly be objective.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #38
    Senior Member BlueGray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Sure, but a quick look at the definitions of the words "subjective" and "objective" will show us that the former is incorrect. Just because someone has associated the two doesn't mean that someone knew what he was talking about.

    Ti is no more objective than Fi because its method of judgment doesn't change with external variables. It is wholly self-contained within the subject--this cannot possibly be objective.
    What method of judgement changes with the environment? How does the way any person deals with environment become objective?
    Ne > Ti > Si >> Te > Se >> Fe > Fi > Ni
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  9. #39
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueGray View Post
    What method of judgement changes with the environment? How does the way any person deals with environment become objective?
    Te and Fe are objective because their standards for logic/ethics depend on what is going on around them. From an extroverted judgment standpoint, nothing is logical/ethical until some external context has been defined.

    If you were to ask Te what's logical, it wouldn't be able to answer you without asking: "What's the goal we want accomplished? Logic doesn't exist without empirical evidence."

    Ti, on the other hand, has internal standards for what is "logical" based on a subjective definition of "natural logic." Ti sees what is logical in a vacuum; Te sees what is logical in relation to some predefined external goal.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #40
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Sure, but a quick look at the definitions of the words "subjective" and "objective" will show us that the former is incorrect. Just because someone has associated the two doesn't mean that someone knew what he was talking about.

    Ti is no more objective than Fi because its method of judgment doesn't change with external variables. It is wholly self-contained within the subject--this cannot possibly be objective.
    "Subject" means the person, and "object" means something outside the person. So of course, i/e will fit this, but then, since Feeling tends to be more personal, and Thinking is more on objects, that is how they fit those terms. You can see this here.
    My MBTI Personality Type - MBTI Basics - Thinking or Feeling
    "Do you like to put more weight on objective principles and impersonal facts (Thinking) or do you put more weight on personal concerns and the people involved (Feeling)?"

    You can also see the connection here: Dictionary Information: Definition Objective - Description Meaning Thesaurus

    And this page seems to imply that this distinction also came from Jung, who of course also used them for i/e:
    Personality Type Information

    Ti deals in "true/false" according to an internal standard, while Fi deals in "good/bad" according to an internal standard. Both are "subjective" as far as the orientation of the standard. But "true/false" is also more objective than one's sense of good/bad. Things would be "true/false" even if there were no people here to judge good/bad.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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