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Ne and Ni

Oaky

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They always end up as the same vague explanations we're trying to avoid. There's nothing simple about any of this, I'm afraid. :) That being said, I don't think what I wrote is that hard to understand anyway.
*sigh* I'm just trying to give an easy vision of both functions. If what I said isn't understood, it's fine.
 

Wonkavision

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Hmmm? The spitting example was about Ni.

Huh?

I was referring to this:

Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki

Ne is more easily definable as the endless line of what could happen or what could've happened. Looking at the possible situations that has or will happen in different lines of possibilities. An example of the Ne thought process would be:

"I woke up late in the morning therefore I missed the bus to work which could have had a nasty guy spitting on me which could have carried a disease which could have made me sick therefore I am happy I woke up late... but what if because I'm late my boss shouts at me and he has a disease worse than the guy at the bus and makes me even more sick and I suffer more thus making me not go to work for a longer period of time and the boss is so satisfied with my temporary replacement he fires me and I end up with no job causing me to be bankrupt and live on the streets because of the difficulty of finding a job... etc."
 

Poki

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Huh?

I was referring to this:

That sounds more Si to me. The internal detail of everything that can go wrong, not so much Ne. This is the equivalent to Ni, but Ni is about theory not so much detail or concrete.
 

Oaky

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Huh?

I was referring to this:
I see. :D Well yea, my examples may be a bit extreme but that is so it would be easily understood. Unless of course you think in a more extreme manner and are offended that I would see Ne with a lack of destructive thought..
 

Oaky

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That sounds more Si to me. The internal detail of everything that can go wrong, not so much Ne. This is the equivalent to Ni, but Ni is about theory not so much detail or concrete.
Actually Si is like using a map to guide you through unknown territories. Si being the map.
 

Poki

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Actually Si is like using a map to guide you through unknown territories. Si being the map.

But how does that map work. You are using Ni to explain Si. You have your theory down, but whats behind the map and how it does it?
 

Oaky

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But how does that map work. You are using Ni to explain Si. You have your theory down, but whats behind the map and how it does it?
VagrantFarce had a good explanation of it
Introverted Sensation (Si) says that the observable world is so overwhelmingly filled with stimuli and randomness that you need something stable to focus on, or you'll just be permanently overwhelmed and confused.
It means that since the future is unknown something must be held on to in order to make things work perfectly. Traditions and things that work that are already known. The unknown is the enemy of Si.

Outside source.
Consequently life demands that we carefully filter the unknown before letting it into a position of influence, that we construct barriers against the unknown, etc.
 

Poki

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VagrantFarce had a good explanation of it
It means that since the future is unknown something must be held on to in order to make things work perfectly. Traditions and things that work that are already known. The unknown is the enemy of Si.

Outside source.

Yes and thats what I got from that example of Ne. I was watching the mentalist last night and he said something about a memory palace to remember the detail. The example he gave was mentally picturing yourself walking into a door and greeting people with their details. To me this is a mental map of details and yes once you draw a map of what could happen, the unkown is the enemy as everything is planned out.
 

Oaky

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Yes and thats what I got from that example of Ne. I was watching the mentalist last night and he said something about a memory palace to remember the detail. The example he gave was mentally picturing yourself walking into a door and greeting people with their details. To me this is a mental map of details and yes once you draw a map of what could happen, the unkown is the enemy as everything is planned out.
No no, What could happen is Ne. Ne is looking at the possibilities of what could happen from many different angles which was my example. Si is more like I'll do what I normally do every day as this is what is known to me. It is my tradition and I'll keep myself safe from only doing what already works.
Ne is a lot of 'what if' situations. It is curious. What if this happened. Then this could happen. But what if this happened. This could happen which is what I was projecting by my example. The example I've shown is using Ne in real life situations. I could very well have said Ne is thinking like:

"Three hundred aliens attack from outer space causing the world to split in half and then 500 penguins fly towards the aliens defeating them causing the penguins to become the smartest race in the world who start enslaving humans for fun."

It's the same only in a more fantasy world. The same manner is used in science where something is figured out leading to the next thing.
 

onemoretime

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I think the easiest way to tell the difference between Ni and Ne is to pair them up with their opposing Sensate functions.


  • Extraverted Sensation (Se) says that the observable world is filled with wonderful stimuli, and all you have to do is let yourself react to it. No need to think, just react. The meaning of something is what your gut tells you you should do in response. If it's not here or not now, it's not real.
  • Introverted Intuition (Ni) says that the observable world is arbitrary and deceitful, and not representative of all the possible interpretations of itself. You have to liberate yourself from these arbitrary interpretations by considering all possible interpretations, or you will risk being led astray.


  • Extraverted Intuition (Ne) says that everything in the observable world is connected to a greater context, and it allows you to make contextual connections between this object and another one. Through this act of discovery, we become aware of greater possibilities for meaning, knowledge or action.
  • Introverted Sensation (Si) says that the observable world is so overwhelmingly filled with stimuli and randomness that you need something stable to focus on, or you'll just be permanently overwhelmed and confused.

A nice method of telling the difference is to just consider the difference between Introverted and Extraverted Perception:


  • Ne is open-ended and led by observation
  • Ni is closed-off and not led by observation

Well, you know I disagree conceptually (I don't think information collecting (perceiving) functions are so deterministic), so I'll just present my thoughts:

First of all, it's impossible to define a perceiving function outside of the context of its associated judging function. Perceiving functions are the "memory" of the cognitive system, so to speak: it is how and where bits of sensory information are "held" to be processed by the judging function. Perceiving functions take in, support, then store the sensory data within the harder memory functions.

Sensing is the lossless version of this process (like a FLAC audio file). It takes input data in, handles it and stores it holistically. The benefit of this is that recollections are much more accurate and full of detail. Details are rarely overlooked or forgotten, and consistency/coherency maintained because of the completeness of the dataset. The downside is that these "big pictures" that are taken in require a lot of storage space within the long-term memory banks. As such, because of the constant need to place new information within these banks, the big matrices of information that the judging function deems unnecessary constantly must be disposed of (forgotten).

Intuition, on the other hand, is the lossy version of this process (like an MP3). It takes the input data in, handles it and stores it as a set of component parts. The benefit of this is that the data can be handled and stored much more efficiently, since rather than many sets of "big pictures" that need to be Judged, you have these individual bits of data, and the judging process only needs to clean up the redundant parts. The downside is that it recollects and interprets through constant fitting of those stored data points together, and this process can lead to some severe distortion.

As such, there really isn't any extraverted or introverted perceiving. It all has to do with what your judging function handles the perceptive data. If you have introverted judging, then the perceiving function appears "extraverted", because the internal judging function needs a constant flow of external data to keep from starving itself. When starved of this data, the judging function will attempt to compensate by using whatever sensory data is within, that is, previously processed by the judging data. For example:

Ne dom/aux: the "Si" tert/inf is the internal recollection of the initial N/Ji processing, brought together once again through the Ji function. Bigger assembled chunks of data are tied together through Fi/Ti, and this leads to much less effective results, since the sets of data are too broad to connect as well as the smaller ones brought in through Ne.

Se dom/aux: the "Ni" tert/inf is the internal dissection of the initial S/Ji processing, divided into its various parts through the Ji function. Since the big sets of sensory data are too large and unwieldy to handle for more than a short period of time by the Ji function (the "gut instinct" aspect), it then focuses in on smaller portions of the set, trying to come to either Fi or Ti-based conclusions about them ("If Coach would have put me in in '83, everything would have been different"). The problem is that the only dissembled data is within that one sphere, and that these conclusions do not factor in other, more distantly related variables.

If you have extraverted judging, then your perceptive function will appear introverted. This is simply because the external judging function needs an internal basis from which to operate. "Si" just bases this on big sets of data, and "Ni" bases this on small sets of data. When dealing with incompatible data, the Je will have no internal basis for comparison, and will thus have to compensate externally. So:

Si dom/aux: More than anything, Si immediately allows for Je to notice inconsistency, because it holds those big chunks of data (combined auditory, visual, gustatory, olfactory, tactile and emotional sensations) and lets Je compare them holistically to one another, and thus understanding immediately what's different between the two sets. If a situation is entirely unprecedented, and there is no means of comparison, the Je will do whatever it can to bring that situation back to something it can work with internally, also known as tert/inf "Ne".

Ni dom/aux: Ni splits data up. It keeps splitting them up until Je starts putting them back together. When Je puts them back together, unusual and previously unnoticed patterns develop, which seem de novo since they are externally consistent (either on Te or Fe terms), but there was no means of knowing this before the data was broken apart and reassembled subconsciously. When the data is understood too discretely to further analyze, Je will then act on the outside world in an attempt to come up with more information that can be further processed, that is, tert/inf "Se".
 

Poki

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No no, What could happen is Ne. Ne is looking at the possibilities of what could happen from many different angles which was my example. Si is more like I'll do what I normally do every day as this is what is known to me. It is my tradition and I'll keep myself safe from only doing what already works.
Ne is a lot of 'what if' situations. It is curious. What if this happened. Then this could happen. But what if this happened. This could happen which is what I was projecting by my example. The example I've shown is using Ne in real life situations. I could very well have said Ne is thinking like:

"Three hundred aliens attack from outer space causing the world to split in half and then 500 penguins fly towards the aliens defeating them causing the penguins to become the smartest race in the world who start enslaving humans for fun."

It's the same only in a more fantasy world. The same manner is used in science where something is figured out leading to the next thing.

But how is fantasy external? You are talking external perception, but keep referring to internal thoughts. To me you seem to be seeing the end result of Ne which is ultimately Si.

edit: let me rephrase that your examples cause me to see the end result which is ultimately Si. Dont know how many others get the same impression.
 

Oaky

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But how is fantasy external? You are talking external perception, but keep referring to internal thoughts. To me you seem to be seeing the end result of Ne which is ultimately Si.

edit: let me rephrase that your examples cause me to see the end result which is ultimately Si. Dont know how many others get the same impression.
*sigh* Si does not look at the possibilities and the unknown. It looks at what we already have. Ne looks at the possibilities and the unknown. It isn't interested in what we already have. Therefore Ne will look towards the future and try to think of the different possibilities and opportunities of what is to come. Positive and negative. My example was an example of looking towards the future.
If you want to know how it affects one externally it is an attitude. It is how they experience the world.

Here's a definition.

Extraverted Intuition (Ne) is the attitude that what is manifest (apparent, observable) is a reflection of a greater reality. The dinosaur bone hints at the dinosaur, the cloud hints at the coming thunderstorm, the thunderstorm is a reflection of the rotation of the Earth within its atmosphere. Whatever you find, there is something more to find: a broader context, a whole, which will change your understanding of the part.
 

Poki

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*sigh* Si does not look at the possibilities and the unknown. It looks at what we already have. Ne looks at the possibilities and the unknown. It isn't interested in what we already have. Therefore Ne will look towards the future and try to think of the different possibilities and opportunities of what is to come. Positive and negative. My example was an example of looking towards the future.
If you want to know how it affects one externally it is an attitude. It is how they experience the world.

Here's a definition.

But all these definitions ultimately assume Si is present. A dinosaur bone does not lead to a dinosaur unless a dinosaur is already known. Hence Si(the dinosaur) must pre-exist for Ne to function in this manner. Ne is more like curiosity and tied to Te or Fe ultimately decides where it looks externally for the answers. But the kicker is the detail of the object that Ne uses to help externally find the answer is Si which is picked up from previous answers. Basically the starting point of Ne is from a visual cue and someone saying this is white. This is the essence of NeTe or NeFe. This starting point is pure Ne. The essence of a dominant Ne type, lets learn something new. Explain this to me. Se is more hand it to me I want to play with it, who cares about your explanation, I want to see how it works which leads to an internal theory.
 

jenocyde

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But all these definitions ultimately assume Si is present. A dinosaur bone does not lead to a dinosaur unless a dinosaur is already known. Hence Si(the dinosaur) must pre-exist for Ne to function in this manner. Ne is more like curiosity and tied to Te or Fe ultimately decides where it looks externally for the answers. But the kicker is the detail of the object that Ne uses to help externally find the answer is Si which is picked up from previous answers. Basically the starting point of Ne is from a visual cue and someone saying this is white. This is the essence of NeTe or NeFe. This starting point is pure Ne. The essence of a dominant Ne type, lets learn something new. Explain this to me. Se is more hand it to me I want to play with it, who cares about your explanation, I want to see how it works which leads to an internal theory.

Oh goodness, this is so off.

Are you trying to assert that Ne does not or cannot exist, and that all things boil down to Se or Si?

Everything on this planet exists, whether we discover it or not. The simple fact of existence does not mean Si. That's not what Si is. Si is not all of existence.

And why does Ne have to be tied to Te or Fe, and not Ti or Fi?

Also, I would read OMT's post. He really makes a great point.
 

Oaky

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But all these definitions ultimately assume Si is present. A dinosaur bone does not lead to a dinosaur unless a dinosaur is already known. Hence Si(the dinosaur) must pre-exist for Ne to function in this manner. Ne is more like curiosity and tied to Te or Fe ultimately decides where it looks externally for the answers. But the kicker is the detail of the object that Ne uses to help externally find the answer is Si which is picked up from previous answers. Basically the starting point of Ne is from a visual cue and someone saying this is white. This is the essence of NeTe or NeFe. This starting point is pure Ne. The essence of a dominant Ne type, lets learn something new. Explain this to me. Se is more hand it to me I want to play with it, who cares about your explanation, I want to see how it works which leads to an internal theory.
Ok, I see, But the transitions from one point to the next is the Ne in it's play and that is what I'm trying to get at with my example. The Si-doms wouldn't look at their lives in the same way as my example. They use what they already know to protect them from what they don't know. Not try to figure out what they don't know using what they already know.
 

Poki

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Ne without Te goes something like this.

This object looks similiar to this one, they must go together.

ex. My niece grabbing a nerf bullet and forcing it into a transformer gun because they look similiar. Confusion comes in when niece grabs a stick shoves it in, sees that it fits but it wont fire. Gun must be broken.

Please correct me if I am wrong, this is pure observation and analysis as I am not Ne.
 

jenocyde

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Ne without Te goes something like this.

This object looks similiar to this one, they must go together.

ex. My niece grabbing a nerf bullet and forcing it into a transformer gun because they look similiar. Confusion comes in when niece grabs a stick shoves it in, sees that it fits but it wont fire. Gun must be broken.

Please correct me if I am wrong, this is pure observation and analysis as I am not Ne.

Can't speak for the ENFPs, but the ENTP train of thought could be one of these: what else can this gun be used for? what else can I use for bullets? I wonder if I can use this as a model for a human cannon? Can I use this nerf bullet as a sponge of some sort? why did someone design this so that anything else can be loaded into the barrel?

I don't know, something like that, I guess. I never see anything as broken, and if I do, I take it apart to see how I can fix it or make it into something else.
 

Poki

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Oh goodness, this is so off.

Are you trying to assert that Ne does not or cannot exist, and that all things boil down to Se or Si?

Everything on this planet exists, whether we discover it or not. The simple fact of existence does not mean Si. That's not what Si is. Si is not all of existence.

And why does Ne have to be tied to Te or Fe, and not Ti or Fi?

Also, I would read OMT's post. He really makes a great point.

Everything starts from senses, please tell me how it cant. I am saying N cannot exist without S.

Ne is tied to Fi and Ti in some sort or fashion, but then you end up with Ji and Pi at work. An internal judgement function in essence creates our internal perception or judges our internal perception.
 

Poki

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Can't speak for the ENFPs, but the ENTP train of thought could be one of these: what else can this gun be used for? what else can I use for bullets? I wonder if I can use this as a model for a human cannon? Can I use this nerf bullet as a sponge of some sort? why did someone design this so that anything else can be loaded into the barrel?

I don't know, something like that, I guess. I never see anything as broken, and if I do, I take it apart to see how I can fix it or make it into something else.

I really dont want to change topics here but I see this thought process that I explained in ENTPS when it comes to feelings. ENTPs thinking someones feelings must be broken, couldnt have been something you did.

Sorry I will try and flip it and reverse it next time. Initially had wonka in mind and he is ENFP.
 

jenocyde

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Everything starts from senses, please tell me how it cant. I am saying N cannot exist without S.

Ne is tied to Fi and Ti in some sort or fashion, but then you end up with Ji and Pi at work. An internal judgement function in essence creates our internal perception or judges our internal perception.

I think you are mistaking senses with materials. Materials (dinosaur bones) exist. How you relate to them is through your senses/intuition. The mere fact that these materials exist is not Si or Se.

How you remember and relate to the bones is the point. You can either note the texture, smell and shape. You may notice its potential. You may imagine its history or its future. You may note that it looks similar to the things you have in your own body. Se, Si, Ne or Ni are ways to relate to the world, not the world itself.
 
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