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Thread: Ne and Ni

  1. #21
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    They always end up as the same vague explanations we're trying to avoid. There's nothing simple about any of this, I'm afraid. That being said, I don't think what I wrote is that hard to understand anyway.
    *sigh* I'm just trying to give an easy vision of both functions. If what I said isn't understood, it's fine.

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    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    Hmmm? The spitting example was about Ni.
    Huh?

    I was referring to this:

    Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki

    Ne is more easily definable as the endless line of what could happen or what could've happened. Looking at the possible situations that has or will happen in different lines of possibilities. An example of the Ne thought process would be:

    "I woke up late in the morning therefore I missed the bus to work which could have had a nasty guy spitting on me which could have carried a disease which could have made me sick therefore I am happy I woke up late... but what if because I'm late my boss shouts at me and he has a disease worse than the guy at the bus and makes me even more sick and I suffer more thus making me not go to work for a longer period of time and the boss is so satisfied with my temporary replacement he fires me and I end up with no job causing me to be bankrupt and live on the streets because of the difficulty of finding a job... etc."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Huh?

    I was referring to this:
    That sounds more Si to me. The internal detail of everything that can go wrong, not so much Ne. This is the equivalent to Ni, but Ni is about theory not so much detail or concrete.
    Im out, its been fun

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    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Huh?

    I was referring to this:
    I see. Well yea, my examples may be a bit extreme but that is so it would be easily understood. Unless of course you think in a more extreme manner and are offended that I would see Ne with a lack of destructive thought..

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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    That sounds more Si to me. The internal detail of everything that can go wrong, not so much Ne. This is the equivalent to Ni, but Ni is about theory not so much detail or concrete.
    Actually Si is like using a map to guide you through unknown territories. Si being the map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    Actually Si is like using a map to guide you through unknown territories. Si being the map.
    But how does that map work. You are using Ni to explain Si. You have your theory down, but whats behind the map and how it does it?
    Im out, its been fun

  7. #27
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    But how does that map work. You are using Ni to explain Si. You have your theory down, but whats behind the map and how it does it?
    VagrantFarce had a good explanation of it
    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    Introverted Sensation (Si) says that the observable world is so overwhelmingly filled with stimuli and randomness that you need something stable to focus on, or you'll just be permanently overwhelmed and confused.
    It means that since the future is unknown something must be held on to in order to make things work perfectly. Traditions and things that work that are already known. The unknown is the enemy of Si.

    Outside source.
    Consequently life demands that we carefully filter the unknown before letting it into a position of influence, that we construct barriers against the unknown, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    VagrantFarce had a good explanation of it
    It means that since the future is unknown something must be held on to in order to make things work perfectly. Traditions and things that work that are already known. The unknown is the enemy of Si.

    Outside source.
    Yes and thats what I got from that example of Ne. I was watching the mentalist last night and he said something about a memory palace to remember the detail. The example he gave was mentally picturing yourself walking into a door and greeting people with their details. To me this is a mental map of details and yes once you draw a map of what could happen, the unkown is the enemy as everything is planned out.
    Im out, its been fun

  9. #29
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Yes and thats what I got from that example of Ne. I was watching the mentalist last night and he said something about a memory palace to remember the detail. The example he gave was mentally picturing yourself walking into a door and greeting people with their details. To me this is a mental map of details and yes once you draw a map of what could happen, the unkown is the enemy as everything is planned out.
    No no, What could happen is Ne. Ne is looking at the possibilities of what could happen from many different angles which was my example. Si is more like I'll do what I normally do every day as this is what is known to me. It is my tradition and I'll keep myself safe from only doing what already works.
    Ne is a lot of 'what if' situations. It is curious. What if this happened. Then this could happen. But what if this happened. This could happen which is what I was projecting by my example. The example I've shown is using Ne in real life situations. I could very well have said Ne is thinking like:

    "Three hundred aliens attack from outer space causing the world to split in half and then 500 penguins fly towards the aliens defeating them causing the penguins to become the smartest race in the world who start enslaving humans for fun."

    It's the same only in a more fantasy world. The same manner is used in science where something is figured out leading to the next thing.

  10. #30
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    I think the easiest way to tell the difference between Ni and Ne is to pair them up with their opposing Sensate functions.


    • Extraverted Sensation (Se) says that the observable world is filled with wonderful stimuli, and all you have to do is let yourself react to it. No need to think, just react. The meaning of something is what your gut tells you you should do in response. If it's not here or not now, it's not real.
    • Introverted Intuition (Ni) says that the observable world is arbitrary and deceitful, and not representative of all the possible interpretations of itself. You have to liberate yourself from these arbitrary interpretations by considering all possible interpretations, or you will risk being led astray.



    • Extraverted Intuition (Ne) says that everything in the observable world is connected to a greater context, and it allows you to make contextual connections between this object and another one. Through this act of discovery, we become aware of greater possibilities for meaning, knowledge or action.
    • Introverted Sensation (Si) says that the observable world is so overwhelmingly filled with stimuli and randomness that you need something stable to focus on, or you'll just be permanently overwhelmed and confused.


    A nice method of telling the difference is to just consider the difference between Introverted and Extraverted Perception:


    • Ne is open-ended and led by observation
    • Ni is closed-off and not led by observation
    Well, you know I disagree conceptually (I don't think information collecting (perceiving) functions are so deterministic), so I'll just present my thoughts:

    First of all, it's impossible to define a perceiving function outside of the context of its associated judging function. Perceiving functions are the "memory" of the cognitive system, so to speak: it is how and where bits of sensory information are "held" to be processed by the judging function. Perceiving functions take in, support, then store the sensory data within the harder memory functions.

    Sensing is the lossless version of this process (like a FLAC audio file). It takes input data in, handles it and stores it holistically. The benefit of this is that recollections are much more accurate and full of detail. Details are rarely overlooked or forgotten, and consistency/coherency maintained because of the completeness of the dataset. The downside is that these "big pictures" that are taken in require a lot of storage space within the long-term memory banks. As such, because of the constant need to place new information within these banks, the big matrices of information that the judging function deems unnecessary constantly must be disposed of (forgotten).

    Intuition, on the other hand, is the lossy version of this process (like an MP3). It takes the input data in, handles it and stores it as a set of component parts. The benefit of this is that the data can be handled and stored much more efficiently, since rather than many sets of "big pictures" that need to be Judged, you have these individual bits of data, and the judging process only needs to clean up the redundant parts. The downside is that it recollects and interprets through constant fitting of those stored data points together, and this process can lead to some severe distortion.

    As such, there really isn't any extraverted or introverted perceiving. It all has to do with what your judging function handles the perceptive data. If you have introverted judging, then the perceiving function appears "extraverted", because the internal judging function needs a constant flow of external data to keep from starving itself. When starved of this data, the judging function will attempt to compensate by using whatever sensory data is within, that is, previously processed by the judging data. For example:

    Ne dom/aux: the "Si" tert/inf is the internal recollection of the initial N/Ji processing, brought together once again through the Ji function. Bigger assembled chunks of data are tied together through Fi/Ti, and this leads to much less effective results, since the sets of data are too broad to connect as well as the smaller ones brought in through Ne.

    Se dom/aux: the "Ni" tert/inf is the internal dissection of the initial S/Ji processing, divided into its various parts through the Ji function. Since the big sets of sensory data are too large and unwieldy to handle for more than a short period of time by the Ji function (the "gut instinct" aspect), it then focuses in on smaller portions of the set, trying to come to either Fi or Ti-based conclusions about them ("If Coach would have put me in in '83, everything would have been different"). The problem is that the only dissembled data is within that one sphere, and that these conclusions do not factor in other, more distantly related variables.

    If you have extraverted judging, then your perceptive function will appear introverted. This is simply because the external judging function needs an internal basis from which to operate. "Si" just bases this on big sets of data, and "Ni" bases this on small sets of data. When dealing with incompatible data, the Je will have no internal basis for comparison, and will thus have to compensate externally. So:

    Si dom/aux: More than anything, Si immediately allows for Je to notice inconsistency, because it holds those big chunks of data (combined auditory, visual, gustatory, olfactory, tactile and emotional sensations) and lets Je compare them holistically to one another, and thus understanding immediately what's different between the two sets. If a situation is entirely unprecedented, and there is no means of comparison, the Je will do whatever it can to bring that situation back to something it can work with internally, also known as tert/inf "Ne".

    Ni dom/aux: Ni splits data up. It keeps splitting them up until Je starts putting them back together. When Je puts them back together, unusual and previously unnoticed patterns develop, which seem de novo since they are externally consistent (either on Te or Fe terms), but there was no means of knowing this before the data was broken apart and reassembled subconsciously. When the data is understood too discretely to further analyze, Je will then act on the outside world in an attempt to come up with more information that can be further processed, that is, tert/inf "Se".

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